Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[sixrings]

As of today onecity is arguing for moving the subway extention to the rt corridor so it can have more stations in what he once described as basically a wasteland hydro corridor. So let's summarize what this is really about. Onecity is willing to spend a extra couple billion dollars eliminating a transfer.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's 2 more subway stops (plus SRT) than York. York right now has zero until Eglinton opens up (technically the Bloor line runs through York for about 500 meters without any stations)

But I guess according to Scarborough logic the LRT is not a subway and hence York still has zero.

Why do borders really matter? It should be about need and estimated future capacity requirements. Scarborough is such a big area. We should be looking at each neighbourhood and analyzing the best way to service each (whether it is Rexdale or SCC or Ajax)

This border issues bothers me, because we know some opportunistic politician is going to complain that the DRL runs 2.5 km outside of Scarborough's borders, while the Sheppard Subway has never been extended.

 

[pstogios]

The subway does not reside only in Downtown and SCC is not low density in anyway shape or form.

What the hell are you talking about?

Is that map fake news to you?

 

[pstogios]

Onecity is willing to spend a extra couple billion dollars eliminating a transfer.

OF COURSE!! This has been clear for years now. His fragile ego cannot handle the downtown elite latte-sipping media forcing him to do a transfer.

 

[Leo_Chan]

The current SSE plan only really benefits those in the immediate SCC area as there is only 1 subway station. Assuming the people who want the transfer eliminated no mater what, even if it leads to longer bus rides, then it is up them to have their minds set to that ideal. With this single stop, everyone else who lives in Scarborough will not get the quality transit that they “deserve” as only the elite SCC residents will have their “high quality transit”.

The $3.5B 6km 1 stop tunnel will only benefit the people living is the SCC and everyone else will have to endure the cost of insane magnitude.

Now the question is, if the SCC elites actually LIKE the one stop subway extension because it leads to an “express” subway ride to their homes. Therefore, even if the 3-stop proposal came back with THE SAME cost as the 1-stop, they will still prefer the 1-stop because the Lawrence East Station will actually be a NEGATIVE change in their eyes because it slows their commute. And the Sheppard East Station is also a negative because there will be less seats on the trains due to SCC not being the terminus of the line.

All this said, the current SSE stops and alignment is PERFECT in the eyes of the SCC elites who desive infinitesimal travel time and infinite seats for their ride between Kennedy Station and Scarborough Centre Station.

 

[syn]

For that matter, what's the property tax revenue from the offices between Spadina/Jarvis/Queen/Queens Quay as compared to entirety of Scarborough and the cost of servicing those areas? That is, what's the annual profit to the municipality?

Neither the DRL or SCC will be funded by the residents of Scarborough (or Etobicoke for that matter). They're already, in general, running a negative; receiving more in services than they pay in taxes on an annual basis. We know what it costs to run SFH neighbourhoods in the GTA by looking at 905's higher tax rates and reduced service combination.

This is an excellent point. An ongoing narrative for years now is that Scarborough is being shortchanged, funding downtown Toronto while getting nothing in return.

It's really the opposite.

 

[Hopkins123]

This is an excellent point. An ongoing narrative for years now is that Scarborough is being shortchanged, funding downtown Toronto while getting nothing in return.

It's really the opposite.

Of what benefit to Scarborough was the $1.2 billion the City and the Province collectively spent since 2009 purchasing the 204 LRVs from Bombardier that route almost exclusively through Old Toronto (remember folks, Neville Park stops one block short of the Scarborough border/boundary!)

Even proceeding this time period (2006) an EA /RTES to replace the SRT with higher order transit was studied, yet here we are entering 2018 and still there's no shovels in the ground in Scarborough. The only areas to receive any new subways during this whole time span have been York, Old Toronto (ECLRT) and North York (TYSSE).

 

[Hopkins123]

Is it?

Relatively speaking, it's a low density suburb. It's not reasonable to expect the same kind of transit service you'd get downtown.

People are throwing around the word "density" too willy nilly. The same 650,000 residents that live in Scarborough may occupy a smaller land area in Old Toronto, but in a world and context where ridership of TTC's subways is primarily determined by surface feeder routes, the person living right beside a station is no more or less special or important than someone who spent an hour commuting in from the other side of the city to get to that one particular station.

The master plan for Scarborough Metropolitan Centre Station (jk!) is to have routes from as far away as Steeles radiate out of it and more importantly feed into it, a hub and spoke model that reduces the number of transfers required to get one from point A to point B. It's not perfect but it's how things have been done in the suburbs for decades now. Why are we not allowed to reduce the transfer to get from Kennedy Stn to the Town/City Centre via a one-seat ride along the Bloor Line? We could stop the RHC extension at Steeles, for instance, and leave Thornhill's Yonge Street corridor a gong show in perpetuity. But somehow we see the value in building that line where we don't see the value in building up Scarborough, which already is a satellite downtown versus what Hwy 7 and Yonge looks like today. Again context.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The master plan for Scarborough Metropolitan Centre Station (jk!) is to have routes from as far away as Steeles radiate out of it, a hub and spoke model that reduces the number of transfers required to get one from point A to point B. It's not perfect but it's how things have been done in the suburbs for decades now.

Hub and spoke route models are notorious for being inefficient. The problem with them is that they require anywhere not travelling to the hub to either:
(A) Take a long detour to the hub, transfer vehicles, and continue to their destination, or
(B) Be forced to transfer vehicles elsewhere on the network, where they'd otherwise be able to travel straight, if not for the hub-and-spoke model. So, for example someone travelling on the 199 would need to transfer to another eastbound bus to travel anywhere east of McCowan Road.

However, what the TTC proposes for Scarborough isn't a true hub and spoke model, as the regular buses follow the grid network, and only the express buses use the hub-and-spoke

 

[sixrings]

besides aren't we as a city building or allowing higher density zoning around subway stations in an attempt to create walk in riders versus ones that come in via bus because that is an additional cost? So going forward we might not be Dependent on bus transfers making not all users equal.

 

[syn]

Of what benefit to Scarborough was the $1.2 billion the City and the Province collectively spent since 2009 purchasing the 204 LRVs from Bombardier that route almost exclusively through Old Toronto (remember folks, Neville Park stops one block short of the Scarborough border/boundary!)

Even proceeding this time period (2006) an EA /RTES to replace the SRT with higher order transit was studied, yet here we are entering 2018 and still there's no shovels in the ground in Scarborough. The only areas to receive any new subways during this whole time span have been York, Old Toronto (ECLRT) and North York (TYSSE).

You're missing the point - Scarborough isn't paying for those items. It isn't a net positive generator of tax revenue that's being used to fund downtown infrastructure purchases. I'd also add that riders from Scarborough using those streetcars benefit from them as much as anyone else.

There hasn't been a subway station built downtown in nearly half a century.

Scarborough has it's own dedicated rapid transit line, and has had it for about 3 decades. York and Etobicoke can't boast the same.

Shovels would've been in the ground in Scarborough years ago if the fully funded LRT wasn't canceled.

 

[Rainforest]

You're missing the point - Scarborough isn't paying for those items. It isn't a net positive generator of tax revenue that's being used to fund downtown infrastructure purchases. I'd also add that riders from Scarborough using those streetcars benefit from them as much as anyone else.

There hasn't been a subway station built downtown in nearly half a century.

Scarborough has it's own dedicated rapid transit line, and has had it for about 3 decades. York and Etobicoke can't boast the same.

Shovels would've been in the ground in Scarborough years ago if the fully funded LRT wasn't canceled.

North York has a much better rapid transit service than Scarborough; two subway lines straight to downtown, with multiple stops. I live between those two lines and know first-hand how handy they are.

Etobicoke doesn't have it as good as North York; just a few stations at the west end of BD line. But at least, Etobicoke has a good access to Spadina line. That access is about to get even better once TYSSE opens. Don't forget that Scarborough has larger area than Etobicoke, and more residents. To bring Scarborough on par with Etobicoke, we need both SSE and the Relief Line East / Don Mills subway. Don Mills subway can play same role for the western Scarborough as the Spadina line plays for Etobicoke.

The fact that the city core generates lots of money and some of those are used to subsidize services in the suburbs, isn't in any way unique to Toronto. Many smaller towns and rural areas, too, are subsidized by revenues collected in big cities. That's the way the moderns financial systems work; it doesn't imply that downtown residents work more than suburbanites, or earn the right to look down at them.

 

[Rainforest]

besides aren't we as a city building or allowing higher density zoning around subway stations in an attempt to create walk in riders versus ones that come in via bus because that is an additional cost? So going forward we might not be Dependent on bus transfers making not all users equal.

While it should be possible to shift the balance somewhat, and increase the percentage of walk-in riders at the subway stations, bus feeders will remain a large source of subway riders. It is impossible to fit all residents within walking distance from the subway stations, and even if that was possible, you don't want to depopulate the rest of the city.

 

[Rainforest]

Hub and spoke route models are notorious for being inefficient. The problem with them is that they require anywhere not travelling to the hub to either:
(A) Take a long detour to the hub, transfer vehicles, and continue to their destination, or
(B) Be forced to transfer vehicles elsewhere on the network, where they'd otherwise be able to travel straight, if not for the hub-and-spoke model. So, for example someone travelling on the 199 would need to transfer to another eastbound bus to travel anywhere east of McCowan Road.

However, what the TTC proposes for Scarborough isn't a true hub and spoke model, as the regular buses follow the grid network, and only the express buses use the hub-and-spoke

Agreed with respect to Scarborough, which is a fairly integrated part of Toronto and not a standalone city; thus a grid system is most appropriate.

Just wish to add that hub-and-spoke model is very common, and apparently efficient, in small isolated cities with minimal local transit service. The central railway station often serves as a hub. Few (5 - 10) local bus routes all pass through that hub, and are often coordinated with trains running to/from a larger city / regional centre.

 

[syn]

North York has a much better rapid transit service than Scarborough; two subway lines straight to downtown, with multiple stops. I live between those two lines and know first-hand how handy they are.

Etobicoke doesn't have it as good as North York; just a few stations at the west end of BD line. But at least, Etobicoke has a good access to Spadina line. That access is about to get even better once TYSSE opens. Don't forget that Scarborough has larger area than Etobicoke, and more residents. To bring Scarborough on par with Etobicoke, we need both SSE and the Relief Line East / Don Mills subway. Don Mills subway can play same role for the western Scarborough as the Spadina line plays for Etobicoke.

Kind of like Scarborough has good access to the Bloor-Danforth Line and the Yonge Line, along with a direct rapid transit link to their suburban-designed city centre.

"Don't forget that Scarborough has larger area than Etobicoke, and more residents."

You just explained exactly why there hasn't been any further subway development there - a lack of density, and the foolish idea to build their city centre/mall about 10km from Scarborough's closest subway station, combined with an RT line that's served Scarborough well.

The fact that the city core generates lots of money and some of those are used to subsidize services in the suburbs, isn't in any way unique to Toronto. Many smaller towns and rural areas, too, are subsidized by revenues collected in big cities. That's the way the moderns financial systems work; it doesn't imply that downtown residents work more than suburbanites, or earn the right to look down at them.

No one is looking down on anyone - the point is that the notion Scarborough taxpayers are funding downtown expansion while they get nothing is complete and utter BS.

Perhaps Scarborough should stop 'looking down' on everyone else and acting as though their transit needs and contributions are more important than every other area of the city?