Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

You do realize that Toronto has hit its self-imposed debt ceiling, right? And that council can’t just wave a wand and make more money appear? And that Toronto will have new ward boundaries in 2018 (with more downtown wards)? Short of a generous donation from another level of government, the additional stop(s) aren’t happening.

The City can not plan or budget anything related to funding until something is approved, and this stop can certainly still be approved. The DRL will soon receive approval by council and upper levels, when the turkey is shaken out with Province, the councillors will have to wave the wand to pay their remaining portion. I also wouldn't count out the Province assisting in the extra stop but an election has to be had first to see who's in power. Brown has already mocked the Liberals in an open letter for not providing Scarborough the "subway its deserves", Inevitably any "plan" is decided upon by Toronto council and last time the vote was very close to add the stop. In my opinion its very much in play and will likely get the go ahead if Tory or Ford win bury the transfer LRT is buried for good following next election. Given the Mayors support for the stop recently the chances are still very strong.

More importantly to this topic the ward boundaries were being appealed to the OMB and maybe someone here can provide an update. Im pretty sure they will not be in place for 2018 if this appeal is ongoing past January 1st. Since this seems very unlikely to be resolved by 2018 only one vote will need to change to approve the Lawrence stop.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You do realize that Toronto has hit its self-imposed debt ceiling, right? And that council can’t just wave a wand and make more money appear? And that Toronto will have new ward boundaries in 2018 (with more downtown wards)? Short of a generous donation from another level of government, the additional stop(s) aren’t happening.

Let’s not forget the Eglinton LRT needs funding as well, and that the one-stop extension was approved only on the condition that the LRT is built.

 

[sixrings]

Let’s not forget the Eglinton LRT needs funding as well, and that the one-stop extension was approved only on the condition that the LRT is built.

So does Eglinton West need funding. Everyone can keep talking about Smarttrack funding but until the cheques go out and construction has started it is just fantasy to me and probably a fair bit of other Torontonians.

 

[OneCity]

Let’s not forget the Eglinton LRT needs funding as well, and that the one-stop extension was approved only on the condition that the LRT is built.

Agree lets not forget as the subway moves forward. Still likely a couple years before design is complete on Eglinton East

 

[sixrings]

The real debate will begin if we here that all we can build is a one stop subway extension and that eglinton east is cancelled to pay for the unforeseen added costs.

 

[syn]

How can anyone rational be for a 6 kilometre long tunnel with zero intermediate stops if alternatives exist and are plausible? The biggest selling point of the McCowan alignment was the convenient direct access to Scarborough General Hospital and brisk 5 minute bus ride to the densely populated Cedarbrae and Woburn areas. The loss of that one station (for seemingly ridiculous reasons... if you want to complain about deep cavernous stations why not take a visit to Montreal sometime) puts the whole project at risk in my view.

I still strongly believe that Bloor-Danforth's natural terminus is the Town Centre, it's just the getting there that's where all the contention lies. I won't wade into the name calling and accusations, but both sides ought to agree by now that Scarborough is relatively underserved compared to most other parts of the City which is why the investment is going there at this time. DRL, Eglinton Crosstown expansion will come with their own independent funding schemes; just give Line 2 this one bone.

Is it?

Relatively speaking, it's a low density suburb. It's not reasonable to expect the same kind of transit service you'd get downtown.

 

[OneCity]

Is it?

Relatively speaking, it's a low density suburb. It's not reasonable to expect the same kind of transit service you'd get downtown.

The subway does not reside only in Downtown and SCC is not low density in anyway shape or form. Unlike Vaughan, Scarborough is going to be closely assisting to pay for all downtown capital upgrades in transit and parks or whatever else for decades to come then the heart of the this area should be integrated seamlessly on the main artery. Giving these people the best access possible should not be this difficult after decades of neglect and poor transit decisions of the past.

Its far from asking for the same level of service. Scarborough has a small fraction of the transit and subway service of what North York has, so to suggest they are requesting Downtown service is a bit over the top.

 

[syn]

Unfortunately the subway does not reside only in downtown. The subway has been expanded extensively throughout the City and now beyond. SCC is not low density in anyway shape or form. If Scarborough is going to be paying for all downtown upgrades in transit and parks or whatever else for years to come. The heart of the this area should be integrated on the main artery.

Far from the same level of service. Scarborough has a fraction of what North York has, so to suggest they are requesting Downtown service is quite rich

The subway has been expanded 'extensively' throughout the city??! I don't think you live in Toronto.

Scarborough has two subway stops (three if you count Don Mills) along with a dedicated rapid transit line.

'Transit' doesn't mean 'only subways'. It certainly doesn't mean 'I don't want to make a transfer'. This idiotic extension is actually reducing transit access in Scarborough.

 

[pman]

Is it?

Relatively speaking, it's a low density suburb. It's not reasonable to expect the same kind of transit service you'd get downtown.

I agree with you, but that's not how Toronto does any infrastructure. You're arguing for basing capital spending decisions on ROI criteria - benefits including number of incremental people moved, reduction in travel time for existing passengers, mitigation of externalities by getting people out of cars, etc.; costs including a realistic estimate of capital cost and an honest forecast of future incremental operating costs. We could even get jiggy and consider the ROI calculation with reference to the whole transit network, rather than viewing projects in isolation. However, all Toronto infrastructure projects begin and end with identity politics and either complete disregard for data, or dishonest manufacturing of fake numbers. As this thread clearly shows, the case for SSE isn't that it will yield any tangible benefits relative to its massive and growing cost. Folks like OneCity demand SSE because they claim:

1. Scarborough residents deserve it in order not to be second-class citizens;
2. The transfer at Kennedy is an unacceptable burden - not justified by data, which Tory actually discounted in favour of "lived experience" - just that the transfer reinforces Scarborough's second-class status and they personally don't like it; and
3. The fantasy that a subway terminus generates so much development that it will pay for itself. If that were true, then Kipling, Wilson and Kennedy would have Manhattan-level densities, and Oxford Properties would be willing to pay for SSE itself. But of course, it's just another lie, and one that Keesmaat was happy to peddle.

We could dream of living in a city where transit is about, you know, transit: moving the most people in the most cost-efficient and timely manner. But that would mean dreaming about leaving Toronto. This town allocates its scarce transit capital budget to moving the fewest incremental riders for the highest cost. Coupled with 416 population growth around 1 percent a year, and a TTC under the control of a suburban majority Council thanks to amalgamation, it's a prescription for even worse mobility for all of us in the future. Including the hard-working folks of Scarborough.

 

[OneCity]

I agree with you, but that's not how Toronto does any infrastructure. You're arguing for basing capital spending decisions on ROI criteria - benefits including number of incremental people moved, reduction in travel time for existing passengers, mitigation of externalities by getting people out of cars, etc.; costs including a realistic estimate of capital cost and an honest forecast of future incremental operating costs. We could even get jiggy and consider the ROI calculation with reference to the whole transit network, rather than viewing projects in isolation. However, all Toronto infrastructure projects begin and end with identity politics and either complete disregard for data, or dishonest manufacturing of fake numbers. As this thread clearly shows, the case for SSE isn't that it will yield any tangible benefits relative to its massive and growing cost. Folks like OneCity demand SSE because they claim:

1. Scarborough residents deserve it in order not to be second-class citizens;
2. The transfer at Kennedy is an unacceptable burden - not justified by data, which Tory actually discounted in favour of "lived experience" - just that the transfer reinforces Scarborough's second-class status and they personally don't like it; and
3. The fantasy that a subway terminus generates so much development that it will pay for itself. If that were true, then Kipling, Wilson and Kennedy would have Manhattan-level densities, and Oxford Properties would be willing to pay for SSE itself. But of course, it's just another lie, and one that Keesmaat was happy to peddle.

We could dream of living in a city where transit is about, you know, transit: moving the most people in the most cost-efficient and timely manner. But that would mean dreaming about leaving Toronto. This town allocates its scarce transit capital budget to moving the fewest incremental riders for the highest cost. Coupled with 416 population growth around 1 percent a year, and a TTC under the control of a suburban majority Council thanks to amalgamation, it's a prescription for even worse mobility for all of us in the future. Including the hard-working folks of Scarborough.

Sorry, the dream of completely changing transit building in the GTA will not start before Scarborough Centre, it was a long shot to begin with after the RT debacle and not after what was build decades ago in North York and even worse recently to Vaughan Centre. Most residents in Scarborough are aware we'll be assisting in paying for massive capital Downtown projects for decades to come. If the subway on the RT corridor subway was a waste than so was the LRT. How isolating the City Centre was considered good planning? In addition to the poor routing of the RT. Sure it have some good aspects like the way it pointed to Markham/Milner, but was a fail on so many levels. But you want to talk about a waste of money to Scarborough residents after that debacle and what weve build and are building elsewhere?

If the subway was extended decades ago it would have save alot of money and time, If the LRT was not proposed as a blanket approach and subway integrated to SCC we would have saved alot of money and time. But we keep looking for different ways not to extend the subway to SCC and we are about to pay for it. Itll happen again on Sheppard as the existing infrastructure impacts Scarborough residents even more with an extra transfer. But to some its Scarborough who needs to just ignore what was previously built elsewhere and the impacts of lower level of connectivity to its core, and its Scarborough voters that are the problem for not accepting this type of transit building when given the choice? Sure. Sorry integration matters and if mistake were made in the past, we either fix them or build areas in a similar manner.

 

[sixrings]

Ok everyone we cannot move forward with transit based on density until we spend between 5-10 billion to fix now both the rt and the Sheppard line. They must end at STC Because that's where all of scarborough loves to go and where once we invest this money it will be a developers dream. People will envy anyone who lives in this area. afterwards because others are jealous then we can take care of their needs. It's like a sequel to dumber and dumberer.

 

[syn]

Sorry, the dream of completely changing transit building in the GTA will not start before Scarborough Centre, it was a long shot to begin with after the RT debacle and not after what was build decades ago in North York and even worse recently to Vaughan Centre. Most residents in Scarborough are aware we'll be assisting in paying for massive capital Downtown projects for decades to come. If the subway on the RT corridor subway was a waste than so was the LRT. How isolating the City Centre was considered good planning? In addition to the poor routing of the RT. Sure it have some good aspects like the way it pointed to Markham/Milner, but was a fail on so many levels. But you want to talk about a waste of money to Scarborough residents after that debacle and what weve build and are building elsewhere?

If the subway was extended decades ago it would have save alot of money and time, If the LRT was not proposed as a blanket approach and subway integrated to SCC we would have saved alot of money and time. But we keep looking for different ways not to extend the subway to SCC and we are about to pay for it. Itll happen again on Sheppard as the existing infrastructure impacts Scarborough residents even more with an extra transfer. But to some its Scarborough who needs to just ignore what was previously built elsewhere and the impacts of lower level of connectivity to its core, and its Scarborough voters that are the problem for not accepting this type of transit building when given the choice? Sure. Sorry integration matters and if mistake were made in the past, we either fix them or build areas in a similar manner.

When was the last time a subway station was built downtown?

 

[rbt]

When was the last time a subway station was built downtown?

For that matter, what's the property tax revenue from the offices between Spadina/Jarvis/Queen/Queens Quay as compared to entirety of Scarborough and the cost of servicing those areas? That is, what's the annual profit to the municipality?

Neither the DRL or SCC will be funded by the residents of Scarborough (or Etobicoke for that matter). They're already, in general, running a negative; receiving more in services than they pay in taxes on an annual basis. We know what it costs to run SFH neighbourhoods in the GTA by looking at 905's higher tax rates and reduced service combination.

 

[sixrings]

What is frustrating For myself is that although it wasn't perfect, nothing is ever perfect, we have thrown out a good plan (tc) for this which costs substantially more, and serves less people all for what sounds like is envy.

Also even with funding delays tc would almost be up and running meaning we could have been focusing all our attention on the drl now.

Isn't there a quote somewhere that says something like "don't let perfection become the enemy of good."

 

[muller877]

The subway has been expanded 'extensively' throughout the city??! I don't think you live in Toronto.

Scarborough has two subway stops (three if you count Don Mills) along with a dedicated rapid transit line.

'Transit' doesn't mean 'only subways'. It certainly doesn't mean 'I don't want to make a transfer'. This idiotic extension is actually reducing transit access in Scarborough.

That's 2 more subway stops (plus SRT) than York. York right now has zero until Eglinton opens up (technically the Bloor line runs through York for about 500 meters without any stations)

But I guess according to Scarborough logic the LRT is not a subway and hence York still has zero.

Why do borders really matter? It should be about need and estimated future capacity requirements. Scarborough is such a big area. We should be looking at each neighbourhood and analyzing the best way to service each (whether it is Rexdale or SCC or Ajax)