Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

What's insane is that the Network 2011 manifesto is over 35 years old and there has only been marginal advancement of its key planned lines all these decades. A subway to Malvern, much less Scarborough Town Centre, should long have been built by now. Kicking the can even further down the road is extremely counterproductive.

It's 'key planned lines' were all based on projections that haven't come true, with one exception - growth downtown. Sheppard hasn't become a major commercial and residential centre to rival downtown. Neither has the Eglinton corridor. Scarborough doesn't have anywhere near the demand to justify a subway.

The DRL is really the only line from that plan that makes current sense, and it should've been built decades ago. Demand downtown continues to outstrip other areas of the city by a large margin.

 

[Rainforest]

The real question is, which 3 stops? Brimley - Lawrence East - STC ?

Or, Lawrence East - STC - Sheppard?

Sheppard is likely to bring in more ridership, but will cost much more (1.7 km of additional tunnel). Brimley, on the other hand, would be an in-line station and should not cost more than $100 million.

Given that Doug Ford will only build what he absolutely has to build, Brimley looks more likely.

 

[Rainforest]

^ I think there are sidings connecting the Uxbridge sub to businesses that receive occasional freight trains.

 

[Richard White]

^ I think there are sidings connecting the Uxbridge sub to businesses that receive occasional freight trains.

For the most part those sidings are being ripped up or cut off. The businesses that used them move on and the places that replace them have no need for rail traffic.

I see a few from the RT near Midland Station where the sidings have been cut.

 

[ShonTron]

For the most part those sidings are being ripped up or cut off. The businesses that used them move on and the places that replace them have no need for rail traffic.

I see a few from the RT near Midland Station where the sidings have been cut.

There are three customers with active spurs just north of Lawrence East. Google Maps is useful to see what still has service: you might see rail cars on the property, or at least track connected to the mainline and and the spurs kept clear of debris. Large industrial chemical tanks on factory property still connected by rail probably indicates that the chemicals come in that way.

It appears that there are now only two active customers on the GECO Spur, which is accessed by the Uxbridge Sub, near Kennedy Station.

 

[Richard White]

There are three customers with active spurs just north of Lawrence East. Google Maps is useful to see what still has service: you might see rail cars on the property, or at least track connected to the mainline and and the spurs kept clear of debris. Large industrial chemical tanks on factory property still connected by rail probably indicates that the chemicals come in that way.

It appears that there are now only two active customers on the GECO Spur, which is accessed by the Uxbridge Sub, near Kennedy Station.

I live next to the GECO Spur and it really is only 1 now. The lumber yard on Birchmount uses it but it is being cut off more and more for housing developments. I give it 10 years before the lumber yard is dismantled.

 

[44 North]

I've seen trains on the spur that goes to Comstock-Eglinton @ Pharmacy. Kinda neat that trains can get so far off the mainline. Would hope these things remain, even if companies decide not to use them.

 

[Richard White]

I've seen trains on the spur that goes to Comstock-Eglinton @ Pharmacy. Kinda neat that trains can get so far off the mainline. Would hope these things remain, even if companies decide not to use them.

The problem is they deteriorate and as a result they are abandoned by the railway companies. The GECO sub used to run in behind Warden Station hence the spur track at the station and the abandoned bridge beside the subway tracks to the east of the station. . It was conceived as a way of receiving deliveries for the TTC by rail.

The track I mentioned above that was abandoned was cut back a couple of years ago for a housing development.

Nice to keep around but more of a liability if it is not used regularly.

 

[OneCity]

So lets go further post Millers transit legacy:

• 90% of Scarborough councillors support subways
• Past 2 Mayors (runner up also large support in Scarb)
• Past 2 Premier support subways
• 100% MPPs in Scarborough support subways
• Previous PM vocal support and current held funding

40%? Add in the MPP Liberal voters....Heck even the NDP leadership or and Scarborough candidates would dare not mention the LRT here. Some even vocally supported subways

That really only leaves a few entitled Left wing Downtown councillors, and affiliated Left special interest/union groups supporting this highly unwanted plan. It really is a majority for people that matter and are impacted the most. It could be another 10 years from now and 100% support to do better and some would still be talking over these residents..

These overwhelming democratic numbers are the unfortunate legacy left from a very poorly detailed transit plan. York region is beyond lucky it doesn't have to deal with a this over the top desire by a few outsiders, unwilling to budge to work on the details and continually trying force such poorly designed unwanted attempt at rapid transit

That's not the entire story. Firstly, this all started because of Sobrara and his developments. The same people against Scarborough were against Vaughan. The Mcguinty government refused to suppot funding for the University extenstion without it. Done. When transit city came, there was not real noise except places like here, against it. Transit city was not awful, and it was not designed to cut off Scarborough, it was designed to save money. Ford canceled everything. What you posted was Ford's legacy. And still, nothing has been built yet other then Yonge North proceeding. I don't even think there will be shovels in the ground by 2022. TTC is dragging their feet.

Maybe a bit more appropriate here.

"No noise" or simply apathy from being ignored and talked over during this period? Even today a few Councillors are still trying to water down the Scarborough concerns and impose their will even after all this mess in the aftermath. Lets not forget Scarborough councils requests for the BDL extension were ignored by Miller in his first term, apathy then set in to get something done with a pro Dowtown Mayor and the underlying concerns of the inner suburbs were simply not being discussed. Miller got his 2 terms and the insane garbage strike and this flaky transit plan was served up to all the next candidates to see large support

"It wasnt horrible" isn't what residents were looking for. For all its good there was much wrong. Adding transfers in addition to one that is already arguably problematic is not ideal for public transit commuters, optics of the Centre. For the huge portion of residents who absolutely need to drive as by far their most effecient means of travel the idea of removing car lanes on major arteries and further impeding traffic with missing grade seperation is absolute insanity. That's a Downtown relevant ideology which I get some can't comprehend if they only know that lifestyle but it doesnt belong here for generations to say the least. The root cause of our current transit climate lies in the Transit City details. Surely there's been chaotic poltics since then plan was called out and it could have been done much much cheaper if council was not so extreme and polarized on both ends during the period of overturning. Don't forget Ford had a deal with McGuinty to connected the Crosstown to SCC and build the Sheppard subway. The current plan was not really Fords but there was little choice for a well connected line when all other options rejected and GO RER moving forward. Dougs transit legacy will be based on what he gets built now with now zero opposition and greater funding control.

As far as support goes the bottom line now is the Transit City plan was overturned in Scarborough with extensive support as a numero uno election item for MPPs, Premiers (and candidates), Mayors (and all runner ups), for 8 years and the response to these candidates of all stripes has been overwhelming. Heck even Smitherman or Giambronne ran on the subway and would have overturned parts of the plan. It was a clever, bandaid that almost squeaked thru as Scarborough no longer have their own Mayor represent there concerns. Amalgamation has been and issue for the entire City and the cost of bridging or sewing the City together is cheap compares to continuing this fight to decide other areas main issues. Sadly a minor handful would rather continue that game then build a great transit network which will be supported by the people impacted the most. A good plan would never get overturned by the people like this.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Maybe a bit more appropriate here.

"No noise" or simply apathy from being ignored and talked over during this period? Even today a few Councillors are still trying to water down the Scarborough concerns and impose their will even after all this mess in the aftermath. Lets not forget Scarborough councils requests for the BDL extension were ignored by Miller in his first term, apathy then set in to get something done with a pro Dowtown Mayor and the underlying concerns of the inner suburbs were simply not being discussed. Miller got his 2 terms and the insane garbage strike and this flaky transit plan was served up to all the next candidates to see large support

"It wasnt horrible" isn't what residents were looking for. For all its good there was much wrong. Adding transfers in addition to one that is already arguably problematic is not ideal for public transit commuters, optics of the Centre. For the huge portion of residents who absolutely need to drive as by far their most effecient means of travel the idea of removing car lanes on major arteries and further impeding traffic with missing grade seperation is absolute insanity. That's a Downtown relevant ideology which I get some can't comprehend if they only know that lifestyle but it doesnt belong here for generations to say the least. The root cause of our current transit climate lies in the Transit City details. Surely there's been chaotic poltics since then plan was called out and it could have been done much much cheaper if council was not so extreme and polarized on both ends during the period of overturning. Don't forget Ford had a deal with McGuinty to connected the Crosstown to SCC and build the Sheppard subway. The current plan was not really Fords but there was little choice for a well connected line when all other options rejected and GO RER moving forward. Dougs transit legacy will be based on what he gets built now with now zero opposition and greater funding control.

As far as support goes the bottom line now is the Transit City plan was overturned in Scarborough with extensive support as a numero uno election item for MPPs, Premiers (and candidates), Mayors (and all runner ups), for 8 years and the response to these candidates of all stripes has been overwhelming. Heck even Smitherman or Giambronne ran on the subway and would have overturned parts of the plan. It was a clever, bandaid that almost squeaked thru as Scarborough no longer have their own Mayor represent there concerns. Amalgamation has been and issue for the entire City and the cost of bridging or sewing the City together is cheap compares to continuing this fight to decide other areas main issues. Sadly a minor handful would rather continue that game then build a great transit network which will be supported by the people impacted the most. A good plan would never get overturned by the people like this.

I will give you the garbage stike, because that's what really took out Miller. Let's also remember the University extension was supposed to go to just Finch West. If all this was about the transfer, then the Ford McGuinty compromise would have been fine, as it also eliminated the transfer. If transit city was all underground, there would have been much less complaning. This is about people who drive wanting to keep driving and wanting transit out of the way. You need to be honest with yourself about this. Regardless, it's time to move on and now the ball is the court of the residents of Scarborough.

 

[OneCity]

I will give you the garbage stike, because that's what really took out Miller. Let's also remember the University extension was supposed to go to just Finch West. If all this was about the transfer, then the Ford McGuinty compromise would have been fine, as it also eliminated the transfer. If transit city was all underground, there would have been much less complaning. This is about people who drive wanting to keep driving and wanting transit out of the way. You need to be honest with yourself about this. Regardless, it's time to move on and now the ball is the court of the residents of Scarborough.

Ford campaigned directly, and clearly on transit in Scarborough as the #1 issue and not so much the garbage strike (although it spoke for itself). And all Politicians have followed, some even putting slogans on their election signs. The issues with the plan were much more than the transfers, the entire plan had important question marks. Even the SMLRT was taken back in the garage as the EELRT and getting serious updates from its previous low detailed non-grade separated form to make it reasonable. Even with optimization making it palatable by grade separating around key intersections we are still removing 2 car lanes on the main arteries of Eglinton and Kingston rd. This is very counter productive to alleviate congestion in a City that desperately needs to do the opposite.

"This is about people who drive wanting to keep driving and wanting transit out of the way." Honestly that's only one part of it but not the end all some want to make it out to be. But very important as all travel modes should be respected. Google any destination in the City from Scarborough and youll see driving is usually the most effective means from and moreso in an around the Borough . In a busy City why take the most efficient transit option in an already congested City when we have no alternative to equally replace so many commutes? Putting the cart before the horse in an already congested region. Its not as though an LRT network grade separate or not would alleviate the need for the many commuters who need to travel to non transit stop destinations in a reasonable time. It simply improves local bus reliability and on the East side to Central Scarborough the express bus routes are already extremely effective for non local travel. Again it was an unnecessary downtown style ideology that was not helpful or needed in decades or possible centuries to come.

Transit City didn't need to be all underground. The BDL could have gone up the RT corridor into Malvern and looped Sheppard connecting the main growth Centre seamlessly. GO RER, BRT where needed and express bus was all that was required in addition to improve public transit commutes and any removal of car lanes should have been the last idea on all main arterial roads. This plan would've hopefully helped allow more commuters to exit their vehicles but still taken all measures to keep the most efficient transit forms in the area maintained and ensure to not instantly increase congestion without offering equal options to replace it. Making public transit more attractive, and reliable is great, and far overdue in various aspects but implementing a plan that would create greater congestion is insanity.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Ford campaigned directly, and clearly on transit in Scarborough as the #1 issue and not so much the garbage strike (although it spoke for itself). And all Politicians have followed, some even putting slogans on their election signs. The issues with the plan were much more than the transfers, the entire plan had important question marks. Even the SMLRT was taken back in the garage as the EELRT and getting serious updates from its previous low detailed non-grade separated form to make it reasonable. Even with optimization making it palatable by grade separating around key intersections we are still removing 2 car lanes on the main arteries of Eglinton and Kingston rd. This is very counter productive to alleviate congestion in a City that desperately needs to do the opposite.

"This is about people who drive wanting to keep driving and wanting transit out of the way." Honestly that's only one part of it but not the end all some want to make it out to be. But very important as all travel modes should be respected. Google any destination in the City from Scarborough and youll see driving is usually the most effective means from and moreso in an around the Borough . In a busy City why take the most efficient transit option in an already congested City when we have no alternative to equally replace so many commutes? Putting the cart before the horse in an already congested region. Its not as though an LRT network grade separate or not would alleviate the need for the many commuters who need to travel to non transit stop destinations in a reasonable time. It simply improves local bus reliability and on the East side to Central Scarborough the express bus routes are already extremely effective for non local travel. Again it was an unnecessary downtown style ideology that was not helpful or needed in decades or possible centuries to come.

Transit City didn't need to be all underground. The BDL could have gone up the RT corridor into Malvern and looped Sheppard connecting the main growth Centre seamlessly. GO RER, BRT where needed and express bus was all that was required in addition to improve public transit commutes and any removal of car lanes should have been the last idea on all main arterial roads. This plan would've hopefully helped allow more commuters to exit their vehicles but still taken all measures to keep the most efficient transit forms in the area maintained and ensure to not instantly increase congestion without offering equal options to replace it. Making public transit more attractive, and reliable is great, and far overdue in various aspects but implementing a plan that would create greater congestion is insanity.

If Toronto wants to be a global city, there needs to be a less emphasis on the car. End of story. When it's not the subway it will be something else, and the excuses just keep coming. Blaming downtown or lefties for the ridiculous, based on the fact people can't leave their gas guzzling SUVs which they can't afford and which cause damage to our enviroment.

 

[OneCity]

If Toronto wants to be a global city, there needs to be a less emphasis on the car. End of story. When it's not the subway it will be something else, and the excuses just keep coming. Blaming downtown or lefties for the ridiculous, based on the fact people can't leave their gas guzzling SUVs which they can't afford and which cause damage to our enviroment.

Only the start of the story.

I agree we need to be less dependant on the car.... Gradually, where it makes sense, in a time frame that make sense, without a blanket, system shock approach and not aggressive until we build infrastructure that can equally replace the car in these areas. For the next Century at least such major changes are not needed in anyway for areas outside the Downtown and other Urban Cores. We needs to build our Urban Core areas as places resident, and outsiders can walk, cycle and work also with easy feeders for bus and car commuters connections (parking lots) so they have a place to easily dismount. This should gradually expand over decades as we grown these urban areas.

Outside Politicians trying to blanket areas with poorly detailed "Downtown" transit principles where it doesn't make sense is unfortunate and does not meet the needs of these areas. Making congestion greater and taking away the most efficient transportation mode in these areas and not replace it with something not as convenient or helpful to those people that need to use a vehicle is crazy and exactly why it will never happen again. Poorly detailed transit is not a Left or Right issue anywhere outside of Downtown where its a few extreme Left Councillors who don't respect other areas lifestyles in anyway. End of story.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Only the start of the story.

I agree we need to be less dependant on the car.... Gradually, where it makes sense, in a time frame that make sense, without a blanket, system shock approach and not aggressive until we build infrastructure that can equally replace the car in these areas. For the next Century at least such major changes are not needed in anyway for areas outside the Downtown and other Urban Cores. We needs to build our Urban Core areas as places resident, and outsiders can walk, cycle and work also with easy feeders for bus and car commuters connections (parking lots) so they have a place to easily dismount. This should gradually expand over decades as we grown these urban areas.

Outside Politicians trying to blanket areas with poorly detailed "Downtown" transit principles where it doesn't make sense is unfortunate and does not meet the needs of these areas. Making congestion greater and taking away the most efficient transportation mode in these areas and not replace it with something not as convenient or helpful to those people that need to use a vehicle is crazy and exactly why it will never happen again. Poorly detailed transit is not a Left or Right issue anywhere outside of Downtown where its a few extreme Left Councillors who don't respect other areas lifestyles in anyway. End of story.

What is there to be respected about lifestyles which increase commutes? This is not a government problem, this is a people problem and a lack of will power. Transit is supposed to transform the area, not aid sprawl. System shocks work in order to advance society. 100 years is too long to wait for significant change.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

If Toronto wants to be a global city, there needs to be a less emphasis on the car. End of story. When it's not the subway it will be something else, and the excuses just keep coming. Blaming downtown or lefties for the ridiculous, based on the fact people can't leave their gas guzzling SUVs which they can't afford and which cause damage to our enviroment.

FYI, I and others can afford our SUVs and quite honestly, some do fairly well on gas. You must be Trump III with those exaggerations.