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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

If we're still playing around with alignments in here I'll just leave this. In short I'd suggest that cost aside there are still definitely ways to make the Scarborough extension as proposed make sense in network terms and avoid the total waste of the SRT corridor. It's not necessarily what I'd have chosen a decade ago, but seems like something that could save face for a lot of people and get the city something workable.
 
This sounds a bit like the Glen Murray alignment. Note on that I believe the Ellesmere to STC section was to be elevated - going over the Highland Creek. I'd have to dig up the link to confirm.

Yes, that's Glen Murray alignment.

I think I saw a drawing with the Ellesmere to STC section elevated, but he certainly didn't have time to order any engineering studies to confirm the viability of it being elevated.

Strongly suspect the north-most section will have to be tunneled once all environmental constrains are taken into account. And yet, thanks to the preceding 3-km surface section, the total cost might end up being lower than that for the McCowan route.
 
I meant the rt tracks should be replaced up to Lawrence east station from there it could go underground to the STC. It would mean less of the line would have to be tunneled so the cost may be less

In addition to what @BurlOak mentioned with Glen Murray tabling this plan only to have council immediately reject, Tory also had this alignment reviewed (link here) at the start of his Mayoralty and the cost came back a shade under $3B. It was rejected with the negligible cost differential, extensive shutdown of the current RT and moving to McCowan alignment would also clear the path for RER/Smarttack.

Even without the benefits of Smarttrack the McCowan alignment provides greater long term benefit if stops are added, but I agree there the BDL extension would have been more cost effective and still provided improved benefit to the Centre using sections of the old corridor, similar to connecting the Eglinton LRT seamless to SCC
 
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Yes, that's Glen Murray alignment.

I think I saw a drawing with the Ellesmere to STC section elevated, but he certainly didn't have time to order any engineering studies to confirm the viability of it being elevated.

Strongly suspect the north-most section will have to be tunneled once all environmental constrains are taken into account. And yet, thanks to the preceding 3-km surface section, the total cost might end up being lower than that for the McCowan route.
I found the link for the proposal, for those who haven't seen it. http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/20130910_Scarborough_Subway_Feasibility_Study.pdf

It was prepared by some big name Engineering Consultant, and the route is the exact same as the 1980's routing, and the proposed 2009 LRT routing, so I think the subsurface conditions are quite well known.
The only question is related to interference with the GO RER. This should have been something that Metrolinx was well aware of, since RER was their own plan. Unless the Liberals proposed this plan that they knew would not work in conjunction with their own plans*, then I think this is a perfectly viable option. The only EA issue that would have stopped this would have been irrational public concern and weak politicians who cave to them.
(* - considering that the original Transfer LRT plan and the compromise ECLRT/SRT plan both used this space, I tend to think that for the RER they had in mind in 2006 to 2014, this would have indeed worked).
 
This sounds a bit like the Glen Murray alignment. Note on that I believe the Ellesmere to STC section was to be elevated - going over the Highland Creek. I'd have to dig up the link to confirm.

It's not the Glen Murray alignment ... It's the common sense alignment!

Imagine what simply realigning Kennedy Stn could have afforded us. A Lawrence East station, probably an Ellesmere/Midland consolidated station, a recycled Scarborough Centre Stn and the possibility to extend northeasternly to Malvern. Best of all, it'd likely silence the critics whom touted LRT instead.
 
Best of all, it'd likely silence the critics whom touted LRT instead.
And the numbers to support this?
Updated October 2, 2013 at 10:30 am:

Metrolinx has sent a letter to Toronto’s City Manager regarding the proposed Scarborough subway. Unlike some pronouncements from Queen’s Park, this takes a more conciliatory tone for discussions between Ontario and the City of Toronto. Notable points include:

  • Metrolinx continues to believe that LRT “would provide an effective rapid transit solution to the transportation challenges in this area” within the available funding, but bows to the desire by all three levels of government to build a subway.
  • Metrolinx is not dictating that a specific route be chosen, but wants a proper alternatives analysis as part of the Environmental Assessment. This contradicts earlier statements by the government implying that only one route was to be funded. It also implies that the shorter “Transit Project Assessment” process (which does not include the potentially embarrassing need to review alternatives) will not be used.
  • The Province is sticking with a figure of $1.48-billion in available funding, from which must be deducted the $85m in sunk costs for the Scarborough LRT project and unspecified costs of scaling down the LRT car order from Bombardier.
  • Although the $320m reserved for the Kennedy Station reconstruction with both the Eglinton and Scarborough LRT lines may not all be required, additional costs are expected at the Yonge-Eglinton interchange beyond the current project budget. Savings from Kennedy may be redirected to Yonge-Eglinton. If there is anything left of the $320m between the two projects, then it could be directed to the Scarborough subway.
  • The Scarborough subway will be entirely a City/TTC project contrary to previous schemes for the LRT that would have seen provincial ownership and a PPP arrangement similar to that proposed for the Eglinton line. This begs a question regarding the accounting for the provincial funding contribution: if you don’t own the line, you can’t book the asset as an offset to the money spent on it. Does this mark a shift away from the creative accounting used to justify taking Toronto’s transit projects away from the TTC in the first place?
  • Provincial funding will begin to flow in the 2018/19 fiscal year implying that no serious construction will be underway until then. The City and/or Federal government will have to front end the project with funding for the EA and preliminary engineering. All risk for project cost overruns will be to the City’s account.
  • Infrastructure Ontario remains available to participate in this project, but this is no longer a requirement of the Province for funding. The decision on whether to use IO or to proceed with a conventional procurement (as on the Spadina extension) is up to the City of Toronto.
Not included in the letter, but reported through Twitter by John Michael McGrath, is a comment from Metrolinx that they are reviewing the timing of the Sheppard and Finch LRT projects.

This letter provides a more balanced response to Scarborough subway issue than some recent statements by Ontario Transportation Minister Glen Murray, and it is good to see Metrolinx acting as a reasonable broker rather than simply as a rubber stamp for ministerial musings. The next major step will be Council’s discussion of the matter at the October 8-9 meeting.

Updated September 25, 2013 at 10:30 pm:

Today’s TTC Board meeting was a procedural shambles when the time came to discuss the Scarborough Subway. The contentious name-calling and parochialism of some past debates lives on for at least one Commissioner, Glenn De Baeremaeker, who is so busy puffing up the importance of his own subway that he overstates his case. At one point, Councillor Josh Matlow spoke of the subway proposal as vote buying. De Baeremaeker did not take umbrage but Chair Karen Stintz did and asked Matlow to withdraw the remark. He refused and left the meeting as did another visitor, Councillor Carroll. Smug and over-confident do not begin to describe De Baeremaeker’s attitude which focuses on getting “what Scarborough deserves” above all other considerations.

Three sets of motions were proposed:

  • The original recommendations of the staff report which asks that the Commission endorse the McCowan alignment for a subway extension from Kennedy Station to Sheppard.
  • A set of motions by Chair Stintz:
    • that the Commission continues to support LRT implementation on Eglinton, Sheppard East and Finch as per the master agreement with Metrolinx,
    • asking that Metrolinx confirm their support for these projects, and
    • asking that Metrolinx confirm that the Downtown Relief Line is the next priority for a subway project after the Scarborough extension.
  • A motion by Commission Alan Heisey seeking a meeting between the TTC and Metrolinx boards to arrive at a mutually agreeable plan for future transit in Toronto.
  • Commissioner Parker proposed an amendment that would have supported the original LRT proposal.
Some members of the Commission were uneasy with the large exposure for the City in future debt and the tax increases needed to finance the City share for the project. The “citizen” (non-Council) members of the Commission appear uneasy about the fact that they have never been asked to vote on the subway alternative until now, and as articulated by Commissioner Heisey, it would appear that their counterparts at Metrolinx have similarly been excluded from the debate.

When it came time for the vote the Stintz and Heisey motions passed easily, but Parker’s motion failed on a 2-9 vote. However, things came unglued on the main motion. Five Commissioners voted in favour, five against, and one, Nick Di Donato, wanted to abstain because he did not feel he had enough information to make a commitment to the subway line at this time. In this situation, the motion would have lost on a tie vote. Di Donato had not left the table, and so technically abstaining was not an option.

At this point, realizing what might happen, Chair Stintz called the vote again and Commissioner John Parker, who had voted in the negative, left the room to ensure that the motion supporting the McCowan alignment would pass unless Di Donato voted “no”. In the end, the vote was 6-4 in favour with Parker abstaining. This shows how divided the Commission is and how poorly support for the McCowan option was organized by the Chair before the meeting started.

In related news, some members of Council are swallowing hard to accept the level of taxation that may be required to finance the City’s share of the project. Some money will come from Development Charges, but the lion’s share, about 80%, will have to come from general tax revenue.

Meanwhile a Forum Research Poll shows general support for the subway, but splits along regional lines and relative to past mayoral support. There is some support for the LRT option, but the poll question specified a level of tax support for the subway considerably lower than what is actually required to finance it. Support for the subway is higher among non-transit users than transit riders.

The whole matter will be debated at Council’s October 8 meeting.
[...]
https://stevemunro.ca/2013/10/02/scarborough-subway-via-srt-feasibility-study/
 
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Although Scarborough subway advocates are acting tough on here the Glen Murray alignment (common sense alignment) made zero political sense despite being the cheapest subway option. They would have had to buy a bunch of houses near Kennedy station to turn the subway train. I remember when this was suggested a bunch of the owners were like not over my dead body. Also once people realized that they had to take a bus for 3 years while construction was being built that become political suicide as well. Finally the idea of an above ground subway stop (think minus 30 weather) was considered disrespectful to scarborough riders when this was considered. Now that this subway has turned into a 1 stop 5 billion dollar ride there is a lot of revisionist history here. By the way elevated also was never a option because guess what... respect for scarborough riders downtown elites.
 
From the letter from "President and Chief Executive Officer Bruce McCuaig" to "Joe Pennachetti City Manager City of Toronto City Hall" October 1, 2013
[...]
Current Agreement: The Master Agreement entered into between Metrolinx and the City and TTC provides for the Scarborough LRT. Metrolinx continues to believe that the LRT project, which was to run from Kennedy station to Sheppard Avenue through the Scarborough Town Centre and to be located on an alignment that would be fully separated from roads and traffic, would provide an effective rapid transit solution to the transportation challenges in this area and could be delivered within the $1.48 billion budget provided for it. However, given that all three levels of government have expressed a preference for a subway in this corridor instead, and each level of government has committed to share in funding the subway project, we accept that an amendment to the Master Agreement to accommodate a subway is required. Governments are the ultimate decisionmakers in these matters and we must defer to the judgments that have been made. The provincial contribution to the subway project should remain limited to the funds that would have otherwise been spent on the LRT, thus protecting the other Toronto projects encompassed by the Master Agreement and other investments in reducing congestion in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area. The contributions made by the federal government and the City of Toronto will meet the additional cost of converting the LRT into a subway project.
[...]
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...oe_Pennachetti-Master_Agreement_Amendment.pdf

Just a small problem there....

The cost amount quoted...Huge surprise. The price of the Cadillac Limousine is more than that of the Ford Van bus:
upload_2018-8-26_17-9-38.jpeg


Any coincidence to certain names completely without merit..."One Stop Shopping!"

Also the Forum Poll that SSE boosters like to quote had some telling results:
When told the LRT it replaced would have 7 stops compared to the subway's 3 stops, approval of the plan was more muted, with just more than 4- in-10 approving (43%) or disapproving (44%). In this measure, 1-in-7 has no opinion.
http://www.forumresearch.com/forms/...ransit_Release_(07302013)(Forum_Research).pdf
 

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Although Scarborough subway advocates are acting tough on here the Glen Murray alignment (common sense alignment) made zero political sense despite being the cheapest subway option. They would have had to buy a bunch of houses near Kennedy station to turn the subway train. I remember when this was suggested a bunch of the owners were like not over my dead body. Also once people realized that they had to take a bus for 3 years while construction was being built that become political suicide as well. Finally the idea of an above ground subway stop (think minus 30 weather) was considered disrespectful to scarborough riders when this was considered. Now that this subway has turned into a 1 stop 5 billion dollar ride there is a lot of revisionist history here. By the way elevated also was never a option because guess what... respect for scarborough riders downtown elites.
Why was it that there were no complaints against outdoor stations when the Ford compromise of ECLRT/SRT combined had outdoor stations at Lawrence and Ellesmere, and it was still elevated through STC?
The mandatory underground subway was started by Stintz and the Provincial Liberals, who wanted desperately to come up with a better plan than the Transfer LRT, which they knew would cost them the election, but refused to acknowledge the widespread acceptance and superior benefit/cost of the Ford plan.
 
Fords compromise lasted for all of about ten minutes before it was rejected. There wasn't enough time to get to the outdoor stations inevitable complaints (they definitely existed online by at least the infamous coffey1, too bad we don't know who that is) once they realized that scarborough riders would lose their minds if they had to bus for 3 years to get from stc to Kennedy while this gets built. But hey the reasonable OneCity liked your comment so it must be right.
 
The problem with Fords plan was it included burying the rest of the ECLRT which would have dramatically increased the cost of the line and delayed it by years. Burying the Scarborough section of the ECLRT was an absurd idea that would have killed the Finch West LRT since the money would have had to come from somewhere. Interestingly had it happened this would have also been the second time Scarborough was part of the reason Etobicoke would get screwed out of public transit.
 
The problem with Fords plan was it included burying the rest of the ECLRT which would have dramatically increased the cost of the line and delayed it by years. Burying the Scarborough section of the ECLRT was an absurd idea that would have killed the Finch West LRT since the money would have had to come from somewhere. Interestingly had it happened this would have also been the second time Scarborough was part of the reason Etobicoke would get screwed out of public transit.

If money needed to be shifted short term, so be it. It alleviated the transfer to the Centre and was the start of moving on from a flawed plan. The only one who screwed anyone in this City out of transit were the creators of the Transit City Band-aid LRT design which had taken many design short cuts that have put this City back a decade. Etobicoke and Scarborough residents actually share very similar concerns over these plans and details are still being worked thru to make the lines that have narrowly survived to this date become acceptable. Ford was just calling out what people were saying . Giambronne & Smitherman and almost every other elected official since have agreed.
 
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