Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Kyle Campbell]

Once reality sets in, plenty of riders unaware that their RT stops will be removed are going to be up in arms - especially those that use Lawrence. Others will question why it's just one, long, 6km stop with nothing in between, a line ultimately far less 'useful' than the since demolished RT.

This is why the "savings" from dropping the intermediate stations is completely false. The demands for the infill stations will begin about 5 minutes after the line opens. I also expect the infill stations to be built (at great cost compared to building them in the first place). But because it comes out of a future budget and not the current capital plan, that's "money saved" to a politician, who doesn't really care about finances long term, just what will get them elected. The same thing happened in the fortune 500 company I used to work for. They made moves that would obviously screw them in the future, but it would make the current quarter financials attractive to short term investors

 

[11th]

I wonder why they didn't go with a line 4 extension instead. It would also bring enough traffic on it that it wouldn't need to be so heavily subsidized. It would make for a longer trek downtown, but it would mean getting on the Yonge line well ahead of the crush at Bloor

The problem is Yonge. If Line 4's extended to Sheppard West and/or RL Long is built or in progress, then a line 4 east extension is better bang for the buck than SSE - and it gets more people to within 4km of grade-separated rapid transit than SSE.

 

[Sakraycore]

I wonder why they didn't go with a line 4 extension instead. It would also bring enough traffic on it that it wouldn't need to be so heavily subsidized. It would make for a longer trek downtown, but it would mean getting on the Yonge line well ahead of the crush at Bloor

I think initially they wanted to connect STC to Fairview mall by LRT, but judging by how it still hasn't been built yet, I'm guessing that tbh LRT isn't good enough for that route. Line 4 needs to be extended by subway eventually.

If SSE becomes a reality, then line 4 extension will be the next thing Scarborough will push for.

The thing here is even if you decide to extend line 4 to STC, the SRT is still dying and needs to be replaced. So I think that is why they're proceeding with SSE instead of line 4 extension. Because even if you extend line 4, it doesn't mean you can just ignore the dying SRT.

 

[11th]

I think initially they wanted to connect STC to Fairview mall by LRT, but judging by how it still hasn't been built yet, I'm guessing that tbh LRT isn't good enough for that route. Line 4 needs to be extended by subway eventually.

If SSE becomes a reality, then line 4 extension will be the next thing Scarborough will push for.

The thing here is even if you decide to extend line 4 to STC, the SRT is still dying and needs to be replaced. So I think that is why they're proceeding with SSE instead of line 4 extension. Because even if you extend line 4, it doesn't mean you can just ignore the dying SRT.

They can, if they had their priority done right. Relief Line Long + Stouffville RER + line 4 east extension render the SSE (under current plan) obsolete.

 

[BurlOak]

Their priority was the DRL Long after completion of SELRT, SLRT, ECLRT (to airport), SMLRT, JaneLRT, Finch LRT (to Yonge) and WWLRT. A big problem with the plan that started over 10 years ago and some people still cling to.

 

[syn]

Their priority was the DRL Long after completion of SELRT, SLRT, ECLRT (to airport), SMLRT, JaneLRT, Finch LRT (to Yonge) and WWLRT. A big problem with the plan that started over 10 years ago and some people still cling to.

Strange. Who is clinging to Transit City?

Aside from SSE supporters, it seems almost unanimous that the DRL is the #1 TTC priority - or at least it should be.

 

[Cobra]

Strange. Who is clinging to Transit City?

Aside from SSE supporters, it seems almost unanimous that the DRL is the #1 TTC priority - or at least it should be.

Relief line is #1 however, there's no going around the SRT needing to be replaced. If the SRT could last another 15 years, it would be deferred.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Relief line is #1 however, there's no going around the SRT needing to be replaced. If the SRT could last another 15 years, it would be deferred.

Is that just due to neglect on the TTC's part? The vehicles are obviously at end-of-life, but the actual infrastructure shouldn't be.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Is that just due to neglect on the TTC's part? The vehicles are obviously at end-of-life, but the actual infrastructure shouldn't be.

That's why they initially opted to fix the line or convert it to LRT. Personally, I don't see any benefits of converting it to LRT over the existing RT; all you do is remove the third rail and lower the platforms. To me, that seems quite a backwards move.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

That's why they initially opted to fix the line or convert it to LRT. Personally, I don't see any benefits of converting it to LRT over the existing RT; all you do is remove the third rail and lower the platforms. To me, that seems quite a backwards move.

Under the original plan where it might have directly been connected to the crosstown by trackage if not service pattern it would make sense. Given that the ship has sailed it seems the SSE is the only option left on the table, but in its current form it's so compromised and so hideously expensive it's a bitter pill to swallow while simultaneously making it hard to fix the other critical issues in the system. I'm hoping that something was learned from this car wreck for future generations.

 

[Rainforest]

This is why the "savings" from dropping the intermediate stations is completely false. The demands for the infill stations will begin about 5 minutes after the line opens. I also expect the infill stations to be built (at great cost compared to building them in the first place). But because it comes out of a future budget and not the current capital plan, that's "money saved" to a politician, who doesn't really care about finances long term, just what will get them elected. The same thing happened in the fortune 500 company I used to work for. They made moves that would obviously screw them in the future, but it would make the current quarter financials attractive to short term investors

Although I am totally in favor of restoring the Lawrence East station, I don't expect it to ever be added in the future if it is not included in the original design.

The number of riders affected by the absence of this station is just a fraction of those who will ride SSE; not even remotely enough to put a significant pressure on the city council and / or the TTC.

So, yes it is silly to skip a major bus connection and the hospital, but we'll have to live with that anyway, unless the station is restored before the tunneling begins.

 

[syn]

I think initially they wanted to connect STC to Fairview mall by LRT, but judging by how it still hasn't been built yet, I'm guessing that tbh LRT isn't good enough for that route. Line 4 needs to be extended by subway eventually.

If SSE becomes a reality, then line 4 extension will be the next thing Scarborough will push for.

The thing here is even if you decide to extend line 4 to STC, the SRT is still dying and needs to be replaced. So I think that is why they're proceeding with SSE instead of line 4 extension. Because even if you extend line 4, it doesn't mean you can just ignore the dying SRT.

The SRT could be upgraded for a very reasonable cost. In fact, it could've been done and completed years ago. There's no reason they can't do that now, with the limited available funds directed to priority projects.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The SRT could be upgraded for a very reasonable cost. In fact, it could've been done and completed years ago. There's no reason they can't do that now, with the limited available funds directed to priority projects.

I believe the biggest issue with running the RT is that the TTC/Metrolinx (depending on regional plans) could eventually have so many different modes of transport that it's just a nightmare for maintenance schedules and for compatibility sake. Right now here are the technologies we have:
- Subway (75' cars)
- ICTS
- 40 ft Diesel Buses
- 60 ft Diesel Buses
- CLRV
- ALRV
- Bilevel Trains with Diesel-Electric Locomotive

Future Vehicles:
- Bombardier Flexity Freedom (100')
- Alstom Citadis Spirit (160')
- Bombardier Flexity Outlook (100')
- 40 ft Battery Electric Buses
- EMU Train

Potential Future Vehicles:
- 60 ft Battery Electric Buses
- 40 ft Trolleybuses
- 60 ft Trolleybuses
- Bilevel Trains with duel-mode locomotive
- New TTC streetcars (assuming Bombardier isn't awarded expansion contract)
- New TTC subway train types (for DRL potentially)

Even SEPTA doesn't have this many vehicle types (3 bus types, 3 train types, 1 trolley type, 2 regional rail types).

 

[Cobra]

The SRT could be upgraded for a very reasonable cost. In fact, it could've been done and completed years ago. There's no reason they can't do that now, with the limited available funds directed to priority projects.

Due to years of procrastination and playing politics, it's unrealistic to put all those people on buses as of 2020 for the following 3-4 years. This should have been done prior to 2010.

That ship has sail, that's why LRT is dead.

 

[syn]

Due to years of procrastination and playing politics, it's unrealistic to put all those people on buses as of 2020 for the following 3-4 years. This should have been done prior to 2010.

That ship has sail, that's why LRT is dead.

They're probably going to be on the bus for the next few years anyways, based on recent reports.

Upgrading the RT wouldn't require people on buses for 3-4 years - The estimate was just 8 months.