Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Leo_Chan]

They're probably going to be on the bus for the next few years anyways, based on recent reports.

Upgrading the RT wouldn't require people on buses for 3-4 years - The estimate was just 8 months.

Is it infeasible to run the SRT with only 1 track?

 

[OneCity]

Although I am totally in favor of restoring the Lawrence East station, I don't expect it to ever be added in the future if it is not included in the original design.

The number of riders affected by the absence of this station is just a fraction of those who will ride SSE; not even remotely enough to put a significant pressure on the city council and / or the TTC.

So, yes it is silly to skip a major bus connection and the hospital, but we'll have to live with that anyway, unless the station is restored before the tunneling begins.

Once the election is out of the way, and slightly depending on what the Province promises at election and who is Premier I fully expect there will be a motion raised again at 30% with one more vote on council to slide the stop into the design at midnight. The vote was almost even last time and there was still a notion from a few outside Councilors that they might be able to drum up a rally call at election time to cancel subway progress if the line was kept at one stop and make enough noise.

Barring some sort of earth shattering scandal or dirty accusation Tory he should still be Mayor next term and if that is the case I would expect a handful of the even the hardest subway Opposition to vote for the Lawrence stop back when its clear the City is moving on and their little gain in fighting further. Political egos aside many Opposition are also coming from a very pro local transit vantage point by still supporting Transit City and this stop will still have meaning to some in their base at that stage

 

[sixrings]

Just a reminder that Marijuana isn't legal until July

Once the election is out of the way, and slightly depending on what the Province promises at election and who is Premier I fully expect there will be a motion raised again at 30% with one more vote on council to slide the stop into the design at midnight. The vote was almost even last time and there was still a notion from a few outside Councilors that they might be able to drum up a rally call at election time to cancel subway progress if the line was kept at one stop and make enough noise.

Barring some sort of earth shattering scandal or dirty accusation Tory he should still be Mayor next term and if that is the case I would expect a handful of the even the hardest subway Opposition to vote for the Lawrence stop back when its clear the City is moving on and their little gain in fighting further. Political egos aside many Opposition are also coming from a very pro local transit vantage point by still supporting Transit City and this stop will still have meaning to some in their base at that stage

 

[Rainforest]

Once the election is out of the way, and slightly depending on what the Province promises at election and who is Premier I fully expect there will be a motion raised again at 30% with one more vote on council to slide the stop into the design at midnight. The vote was almost even last time and there was still a notion from a few outside Councilors that they might be able to drum up a rally call at election time to cancel subway progress if the line was kept at one stop and make enough noise.

Barring some sort of earth shattering scandal or dirty accusation Tory he should still be Mayor next term and if that is the case I would expect a handful of the even the hardest subway Opposition to vote for the Lawrence stop back when its clear the City is moving on and their little gain in fighting further. Political egos aside many Opposition are also coming from a very pro local transit vantage point by still supporting Transit City and this stop will still have meaning to some in their base at that stage

Yeah, let's hope the Lawrence East station will be reinstated, while the project is still in the design phase.

Even if it costs $200 million or $300 million, it is still less than 10% of the total funding needed for this project. Definitely worth spending this amount to serve the hospital and connect to the major bus route.

 

[BurlOak]

Yeah, let's hope the Lawrence East station will be reinstated, while the project is still in the design phase.

Even if it costs $200 million or $300 million, it is still less than 10% of the total funding needed for this project. Definitely worth spending this amount to serve the hospital and connect to the major bus route.

I would guess that Lawrence would be in if Ford is elected.

 

[Rainforest]

I would guess that Lawrence would be in if Ford is elected.

I dunno; taking care of one single station would be too fine-grained for a provincial premier.

Yonge North and DRL may be pushed forward ... or not

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

bump because people should use this thread for debate.

both sheppard and bloor subways will be built.

 

[sixrings]

Thank you fortune teller den. Can you give me next week's loto numbers too?

both sheppard and bloor subways will be built.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Thank you fortune teller den. Can you give me next week's loto numbers too?

5 10 15 20 25 30

But in all seriousness, Tory got played. After the BD extension gets completed, then the sam advocates will demand for sheppard to be built to close the gap. And with the TTC considering Victoria Park as a DRL site, the pressure will increase.

 

[BurlOak]

Scarborough subway is terrible transit planning. An inquiry won’t fix that

I am not sure if the problem started
with Miller killing the plan to upgrade the SRT - which had the best benefit/cost ratio at the time by far, or
with Council killing the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown, the compromise solution to grade-separate the entire line, or
with Mitzi Hunter and the Liberals joining the debate.

Anyway - it is a mess that has been years in the making.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am not sure if the problem started

I think they really got the whole plot backwards. Toronto's hole has always been regional transit. Nobody in the burbs really cares about saving 5-10 mins on a bus ride. They care far more about saving 20-30 minutes on their 1.5 hr long commute. How would we have planned subway and LRT if we had proper regional/suburban rail in Toronto. That's what people should be asking.

I posit that if we actually had proper regional rail, you wouldn't need grade separated LRT or subway extensions in most of Scarborough. Build LRT at-grade on Danforth-McCowan and Morningside, that are branches of the Eglinton line. Through service from Scarborough to Yonge along Eglinton. Intermodal options at Kennedy.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I think they really got the whole plot backwards. Toronto's hole has always been regional transit. Nobody in the burbs really cares about saving 5-10 mins on a bus ride. They care far more about saving 20-30 minutes on their 1.5 hr long commute. How would we have planned subway and LRT if we had proper regional/suburban rail in Toronto. That's what people should be asking.

I posit that if we actually had proper regional rail, you wouldn't need grade separated LRT or subway extensions in most of Scarborough. Build LRT at-grade on Danforth-McCowan and Morningside, that are branches of the Eglinton line. Through service from Scarborough to Yonge along Eglinton. Intermodal options at Kennedy.

It's already been proven that regional rail from the STC/anywhere along the GO corridor in Scarborough would have little to no time savings when compared to the subway without express service for the vast majority of people because frequencies at the GO stations will, at best, be 1/3 that of the LRT/subway, the accelerations will decrease, the transfers at GO stations will not be seamless, and the Union station transfer will be a huge clusterduck. It really only helps people commuting to King and anywhere south of king, otherwise, it's faster to take the subway/LRT.

Regional rail will really help people living around the stations, which, unfortunately for scarborough, have extremely low density to be effective.

Forcing everyone in Scarborough to use GO instead of the TTC is a recipe for disaster depending on how many coaches are used. Currently, 12-car trains are packed on the Stouffville line and run at fairly high frequencies during the peak hours. However, the line only carries about 15K passengers per day (~7K in the peak direction during peak hours). You can't just throw in another 15-20K people per direction during peak hours just like that and expect everything to work just fine.

 

[robmausser]

the transfers at GO stations will not be seamless, and the Union station transfer will be a huge clusterduck. .

Metrolinx is looking at seamless fare integration

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2018/04/metrolinx-releases-technical-background-new-stations

integrating fares—Metrolinx now assumes that fares for both regional and local transit agencies would be equal and that passengers would not have to pay extra to transfer between systems.

and with continuing RER trains through Union like the Lakeshore Lines already do. So potentially a Stouffville Line RER train will become a Kitchener Line RER.

So this means that someone getting on in Scarborough in a Stouffville RER will have the opportunity to get off at Gerrard, Unliever, Union, Liberty and St.Clair, without a transfer.

This means that less people will be getting off at Union, as there will be other stations within Toronto that would make more sense/closer to their destination.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Metrolinx is looking at seamless fare integration

For the RER stations, was referring to a lack of a fare paid bus terminal area. That will significantly increase transfer time.

 

[Leo_Chan]

For the RER stations, was referring to a lack of a fare paid bus terminal area. That will significantly increase transfer time.

Well, if you're worried about tapping when transferring and if fare integration is completely seamless, then you wont have to tap off tap on at transfers, but rather just tap off at your destination. Even better, if only 1 tap for the whole journey, though that would be kind of difficult. If you're taking about the distance from bus terminal to RER, then I can't help you with that.