Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Coolstar]

The section from west of Victoria Park to east of Warden should have been tunneled.

Should have been elevated. Fixed that for you.

 

[ARG1]

Transit City was really designed to be Streetcar+ or the term we really don't like, glorified streetcars. ML tried to make it more rapid transit like by grade separating Black Creek and now Eg West extension. It was never designed for a supplement to Line 2. The tunnel centre section was only there cause the street isn't wide enough while being the busiest section of the line. With this design mentality, the tunnel ended at Brantcliffe instead of Don Mills.

Is it really a mistake?
To most of the readers on this board: Yes cause most all love rapid transit and loves more deep tunneled subways or elevated structures.

Most people here are avid transit users who care more about transit they can use and ride on rather than "ooh shiny impressive trains". Compared to many other places on the internet, this is arguably the least foamery transit forum I have seen. Most people want to have a serious discussion on what works, instead of "elevated because elevated is cool".

To the city urban planners: Absolutely NOT! Surface LRT fulfills cheaper, easy to access, local transit that can encourage mid-rise development.

Because North American Urban Planners DEFINITELY do not have a long and storied history of making boneheaded decisions based off some idealistic goal that happens to be popular at that point in time, and developing severe Myopia when it comes to decision making...

To transit users: Depends on how you use it. Those lookign for a subway alternative won't like it being slower but local Eglinton East riders would find it more convenient than widely spaced deep subway stations.

Debatable. If it was fully grade separated, they could run the trains at significantly higher frequencies, which means while getting to the platform takes longer, on average they will have to wait for the next train for a lot less time whilst on the platform, and the actual travel time that is gained by not being on street would also significantly help offset the time (also if they only need to travel a few blocks, that's what parallel bus service is for).

Finally its important to look at Eglinton as whole. The line will be absolutely massive once fully built out, connecting to several GO, subway, and other rapid transit services (Line 1, 2, Kitchener, Barrie, Stouffville, LSE, SDBRT, Mississauga Transitway, and potentially much more), goes through all 6 of the former boroughs, the biggest airport in the region, a massive university campus, all while being on a corridor with massive development potential. All of this screams "Perfect for a Line 2 supplement".

To Doug Ford: I think we all know the answer!

I think ML should really fire TTC as the operator once they realize they can't manage any lines properly.

This line is as much of a ML problem as it is a TTC problem, if not moreso. Boneheaded decisions like putting the line in the median of Eglinton east of Brentcliffe was 90% on Metrolinx, and a lot of aspects of the line such as surface stop design were butchered and neutered once Metrolinx got a hold of the project.

 

[Northern Light]

I was driving...............so I could not take a photo................but, this:

Is now vacant, and fenced off with SSE signage on it.

 

[sche]

Yesterday at Sheppard and McCowan, taken from a bus:
some heavy equipment there including an excavator and what looks like a temp construction office.
looks like some major excavation is starting (TBM launch shaft presumably)

 

[Steve X]

Debatable. If it was fully grade separated, they could run the trains at significantly higher frequencies, which means while getting to the platform takes longer, on average they will have to wait for the next train for a lot less time whilst on the platform, and the actual travel time that is gained by not being on street would also significantly help offset the time (also if they only need to travel a few blocks, that's what parallel bus service is for).

Finally its important to look at Eglinton as whole. The line will be absolutely massive once fully built out, connecting to several GO, subway, and other rapid transit services (Line 1, 2, Kitchener, Barrie, Stouffville, LSE, SDBRT, Mississauga Transitway, and potentially much more), goes through all 6 of the former boroughs, the biggest airport in the region, a massive university campus, all while being on a corridor with massive development potential. All of this screams "Perfect for a Line 2 supplement".

This line is as much of a ML problem as it is a TTC problem, if not moreso. Boneheaded decisions like putting the line in the median of Eglinton east of Brentcliffe was 90% on Metrolinx, and a lot of aspects of the line such as surface stop design were butchered and neutered once Metrolinx got a hold of the project.

I don't really believe in parallel bus services. They often get stuck in traffic and show up whenever they want. Sheppard parallel bus has good service only cause it's short. This 34 is going to be a mess with over half an hour gaps. What they built in Finch is good for that area.

I agree that Eglinton has now become a hybrid mess. West of Yonge is decent rapid transit while the east end would be glorified streetcar. Personally I think they surface section wouldn't be that bad except the VP/O'Connor/Pharmacy section that should been grade separated. Same as the Weston/400/Jane section on Finch. Those would be major traffic delays.

 

[DirectionNorth]

I don't really believe in parallel bus services. They often get stuck in traffic and show up whenever they want. Sheppard parallel bus has good service only cause it's short. This 34 is going to be a mess with over half an hour gaps. What they built in Finch is good for that area.

I agree that Eglinton has now become a hybrid mess. West of Yonge is decent rapid transit while the east end would be glorified streetcar. Personally I think they surface section wouldn't be that bad except the VP/O'Connor/Pharmacy section that should been grade separated. Same as the Weston/400/Jane section on Finch. Those would be major traffic delays.

The problem with no bus service is mainly for local users; people who ride from, say, Kennedy to Warden might find a bus faster than walking to a station further away, then walking to the destination from a further station.

If you have 95% of the line grade separated, might as well do the rest and get a light metro or something.

 

[afransen]

LRT is part of the problem, it's a technology that makes sense in completely different contexts from where we are using it in Toronto and mark my words - we will know our mistake when Eglinton opens!

Ottawa is our preview.

 

[afransen]

To most of the readers on this board: Yes cause most all love rapid transit and loves more deep tunneled subways or elevated structures.
To the city urban planners: Absolutely NOT! Surface LRT fulfills cheaper, easy to access, local transit that can encourage mid-rise development.
To transit users: Depends on how you use it. Those lookign for a subway alternative won't like it being slower but local Eglinton East riders would find it more convenient than widely spaced deep subway stations.
To Doug Ford: I think we all know the answer!

You would have a point if the thing was cheap. Instead, it is mind-bogglingly expensive for a glorified streetcar. For what we spent, we could have spent or perhaps slightly more, we could have got real rapid transit instead of what will inevitably be a problem and delay prone streetcar line.

 

[ShonTron]

I was driving...............so I could not take a photo................but, this:

View attachment 359189

Is now vacant, and fenced off with SSE signage on it.

That plaza was the setting of the Beer Store scene in "Strange Brew" where the Mackenzie Brothers try to get a refund on a two-four because there was supposedly a mouse in one of the bottles.

 

[ARG1]

I don't really believe in parallel bus services. They often get stuck in traffic and show up whenever they want. Sheppard parallel bus has good service only cause it's short. This 34 is going to be a mess with over half an hour gaps. What they built in Finch is good for that area.

I agree that Eglinton has now become a hybrid mess. West of Yonge is decent rapid transit while the east end would be glorified streetcar. Personally I think they surface section wouldn't be that bad except the VP/O'Connor/Pharmacy section that should been grade separated. Same as the Weston/400/Jane section on Finch. Those would be major traffic delays.

From what I've heard, a recent TTC document is suggesting a parallel bus service either way. Also the 97 ain't that bad.

 

[Rainforest]

^ The 97 is bad. In my experience, walking to the closest subway station is always faster than waiting for the 97, unless the bus happens to be in sight.

On the other hand, the bus frequency is a budget decision and isn't based on any technical limitation. They can run the bus every 15 min or every 10 min, they just don't want to do so.

 

[syn]

Transit City was really designed to be Streetcar+ or the term we really don't like, glorified streetcars. ML tried to make it more rapid transit like by grade separating Black Creek and now Eg West extension. It was never designed for a supplement to Line 2. The tunnel centre section was only there cause the street isn't wide enough while being the busiest section of the line. With this design mentality, the tunnel ended at Brantcliffe instead of Don Mills.

Is it really a mistake?
To most of the readers on this board: Yes cause most all love rapid transit and loves more deep tunneled subways or elevated structures.
To the city urban planners: Absolutely NOT! Surface LRT fulfills cheaper, easy to access, local transit that can encourage mid-rise development.
To transit users: Depends on how you use it. Those lookign for a subway alternative won't like it being slower but local Eglinton East riders would find it more convenient than widely spaced deep subway stations.
To Doug Ford: I think we all know the answer!

I think ML should really fire TTC as the operator once they realize they can't manage any lines properly.

Agreed. Given the development they're planning it'll be a great fit for the area. And at 6.5km you're never more than 3.5km away from a subway (once the OL is done).

 

[Steve X]

The problem with no bus service is mainly for local users; people who ride from, say, Kennedy to Warden might find a bus faster than walking to a station further away, then walking to the destination from a further station.

If you have 95% of the line grade separated, might as well do the rest and get a light metro or something.

That's the problem. It was only intended to be 30% grade separated. Now it'll be 75% once they get the airport section in. They might still planned for some at-grade crossings beyond Renforth.

From what I've heard, a recent TTC document is suggesting a parallel bus service either way. Also the 97 ain't that bad.

The 97 comes whenever it wants. The 97B downtown gets some riders when they see it coming. The 97F in North York Centre barely gets any riders.

 

[EnviroTO]

Is it that time of year again where Crosstown LRT's mix of on the surface and underground running is attacked by people who obviously haven't seen well implemented examples? I'm not sure how the expensive displacement of dirt and worms in front of Staples on Eglinton Ave E is critical to the movement of people. People that don't like the speed of transit seem to jump in the car and last I checked cars run at grade. If the LRT doesn't go quickly it would be a poor implementation of signal prioritization and/or failing to dive under problematic intersections, not because the added expense of making vehicles run above grade or below grade goes faster.

 

[ARG1]

Is it that time of year again where Crosstown LRT's mix of on the surface and underground running is attacked by people who obviously haven't seen well implemented examples?

Well implemented examples? Where?

German Stadtbahns don't count - those are fundamentally different from what Eglinton is.

I'm not sure how the expensive displacement of dirt and worms in front of Staples on Eglinton Ave E is critical to the movement of people. People that don't like the speed of transit seem to jump in the car and last I checked cars run at grade.

Cars don't have to stop at stations, and cars go wherever, meanwhile on transit you have to A) Get to the stop/station, B) Wait for the bus/train, C) If needed you have to transfer to another service which will require more waiting, and D) get from the station to your destination. There are so many inherent advantages that Cars have over regular transit, that in order to be competitive, you need to do more than just "avoid traffic".

If the LRT doesn't go quickly it would be a poor implementation of signal prioritization and/or failing to dive under problematic intersections, not because the added expense of making vehicles run above grade or below grade goes faster.

Its both. Signal Prioritiziation and key grade separations do help a lot but A) The crosstown isn't exactly implementing either of these (One can argue Science Centre, but that's more a failing that is the section of the line at Sunnybrooke Park and B) Even with those things, a fully grade separated line will ALWAYS perform much better than at grade running. Just ask Seattle where the 1 Line was initially built half grade separated half at grade, but now all new extensions are fully - or at least mostly grade separated (they are implementing some at grade crossings with crossing gates) because they looked at what was occurring 2h north of them over in Vancouver, and saw how much better the Skytrain was - running circles around them in both speed and frequency, and ultimately, ridership.