Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[W. K. Lis]

Will the Greenwood Yard, in its current configuration, track layout, and real estate, be able to support the extra trains needed for the extension? Will this mean that the (former CPR) Obico Yard be needed by the target date of the Line 2 extension (2030+)?

 

[toronto647]

Finally a positive story by TVO

The case against the case for delaying Toronto’s subway plans | TVO.org

OPINION: The idea that the pandemic should make the province rethink its plan to build more subways in Toronto is flawed. Subways were a good idea before COVID-19 — and they’ll be a good idea after it.

www.tvo.org

 

[toronto647]

Out of curiosity what are the chances in the event Ford loses the elections next June that this project either gets cancelled? or gets altered to become above ground? My guess is it remains as is since tunnel boring machines will be well advanced by the middle of next year. Thoughts on this?

 

[kamira51]

Finally a positive story by TVO

The case against the case for delaying Toronto’s subway plans | TVO.org

OPINION: The idea that the pandemic should make the province rethink its plan to build more subways in Toronto is flawed. Subways were a good idea before COVID-19 — and they’ll be a good idea after it.

www.tvo.org

Absolutely horrible idea.

Out of curiosity what are the chances in the event Ford loses the elections next June that this project either gets cancelled? or gets altered to become above ground? My guess is it remains as is since tunnel boring machines will be well advanced by the middle of next year. Thoughts on this?

If he keeps his mouth shut, he will most likely be re-elected.

 

[allengeorge]

If he keeps his mouth shut, he will most likely be re-elected.

One worrisome note is that the latest PCPO fundraising letter makes absolutely no mention of transit - simply on twinning roads across Ontario, and building bridges and highways.

 

[rbt]

If he keeps his mouth shut, he will most likely be re-elected.

He's in a bit of a pickle. Polls have the Cons in a minority government position at the moment, and I don't imagine the election debates will be kind to Ford. To get a majority Ford isn't going to be able to stay silent. Ford going off a carefully crafted message is likely to benefit the Liberals.


IMO, Ford needs to be boosting Horwath at every opportunity.

I hope the Ontario election stock market opens in a few months https://predictionmarkets.ca .

 

[micheal_can]

Finally a positive story by TVO

The case against the case for delaying Toronto’s subway plans | TVO.org

OPINION: The idea that the pandemic should make the province rethink its plan to build more subways in Toronto is flawed. Subways were a good idea before COVID-19 — and they’ll be a good idea after it.

www.tvo.org

Lower numbers is the best time to do it. Then when those numbers come back, the system can handle them.

He's in a bit of a pickle. Polls have the Cons in a minority government position at the moment, and I don't imagine the election debates will be kind to Ford. To get a majority Ford isn't going to be able to stay silent. Ford going off a carefully crafted message is likely to benefit the Liberals.


IMO, Ford needs to be boosting Horwath at every opportunity.

I hope the Ontario election stock market opens in a few months https://predictionmarkets.ca .

The good thing is, I doubt any of the other parties want to cancel subway and LRT construction within Toronto.

 

[superelevation]

The difference is funding. The TTC doesn't have the money too keep them running any longer. If Rob Ford hadn't cancelled the LRT projects we would have two LRT lines running by this point. The original plan was that the SRT would close after the Pan Am games was over and buses would run until the existing right of way was converted to be able to run the LRTs on at the same time a line was going to be extended from Don Mills sation to Sheppard Avenue East and medovalle road where both the Sheppard line and the extended Scarborough line would meet with one of them branching off to serve the Toronto Zoo. However do to city council changing the plans and everything having to go back to the planning stages it ment that they had to extend the SRT for longer and then with the province and Metrolinx redesigning everything again it delayed things even more than if the city of Toronto was building the line.

Wow, streetcars travelling 15kph down suburban streets sound like a dream!

 

[Cobra]

Wow, streetcars travelling 15kph down suburban streets sound like a dream!

I'll never understand this city struggle with "RAPID" transit. LRT isn't the problem, the unwillingness to implement true transit signals and/or grade separation to speed up operation and reliability is baffling. I'll never get it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wow, streetcars travelling 15kph down suburban streets sound like a dream!

So saith the Toronto Transportation Department (Roads), so it will be done.

From link.
All hail the almighty automobile.

 

[superelevation]

I'll never understand this city struggle with "RAPID" transit. LRT isn't the problem, the unwillingness to implement true transit signals and/or grade separation to speed up operation and reliability is baffling. I'll never get it.

LRT is part of the problem, it's a technology that makes sense in completely different contexts from where we are using it in Toronto and mark my words - we will know our mistake when Eglinton opens!

 

[ARG1]

I'll never understand this city struggle with "RAPID" transit. LRT isn't the problem, the unwillingness to implement true transit signals and/or grade separation to speed up operation and reliability is baffling. I'll never get it.

LRT is part of the problem. The moment you have a mode that is "flexible", you also have a mode that is "flexible to f*** up". We can build an LRT that is fully grade separated and acts like a metro, but because the mode is capable of running at grade on street without a hitch, you can have idiot politicians come in in the future and ruin what made that line great. In fact the "unwillingness to implement true transit signals and/or grade separation to speed up operation" is a symptom of this very major problem with LRT.

If we compare this with the existing TTC Subway network, what exactly can be done with that to downsize it? Reduce headways? Smaller trains? There really isn't that much room to fundamentally weaken it.

 

[ARG1]

I think LRT has been done successfully in Calgary and Edmonton. The eastern leg of the Crosstown is workable at-grade but it should have followed their lead and used actual transit priority (that is, the light turns red as the LRV approaches the intersection and the gates go down).

However in both of these cases the LRTs are less "LRTs" and more S-Bahn style services, and are designed in a manner that is quite uncomparable to Eglinton.

They are almost always built in former railway ROWs where they don't have to deal with much traffic, and where they are in road medians, its usually some form of wide expressway, rather than a regular street, and either way they both have or are going to have sections that are in the median without the gates. In Calgary, the downtown transit mall is like this (no gates, and very minimal TSP), and in Edmonton the extension of the Metro Line towards St. Alberts will run in the median where it will stop at intersections and get stuck behind red lights, no barriers in sight (although at least some stations will be grade separated). This is without mentioning the Calgary Green and Edmonton Valley Lines which will be low floor, and again not have many of these things.

The fundamental issue at play is that the main force backing LRTs are the urbanist/urban planning types that have a much greater interest in replicating this idealist vision of "complete streets" where there is plenty of space to shop, walk, bike, and access to transportation is quick and easy (no need to go into a massive station, just cross the street and you're at the platform). However, as I've mentioned plenty of times before, these idealistic visions of transit are generally mutually exclusive with features and functionalities that will make that transit fast and useful. Stuff like crossing barriers are a no go because they create a ton of noise pollution, and barriers around the tracks make the scene far less attractive. Edmonton was recently also bit by these "urbanist ideals" and this resulted in horrendous planning decisions like this curved at grade crossing that has caused a ton of collisions and traffic congestion, all because "elevated structures are unsightly". At least they put in crossing barriers:

 

[Steve X]

LRT is part of the problem, it's a technology that makes sense in completely different contexts from where we are using it in Toronto and mark my words - we will know our mistake when Eglinton opens!

Transit City was really designed to be Streetcar+ or the term we really don't like, glorified streetcars. ML tried to make it more rapid transit like by grade separating Black Creek and now Eg West extension. It was never designed for a supplement to Line 2. The tunnel centre section was only there cause the street isn't wide enough while being the busiest section of the line. With this design mentality, the tunnel ended at Brantcliffe instead of Don Mills.

Is it really a mistake?
To most of the readers on this board: Yes cause most all love rapid transit and loves more deep tunneled subways or elevated structures.
To the city urban planners: Absolutely NOT! Surface LRT fulfills cheaper, easy to access, local transit that can encourage mid-rise development.
To transit users: Depends on how you use it. Those lookign for a subway alternative won't like it being slower but local Eglinton East riders would find it more convenient than widely spaced deep subway stations.
To Doug Ford: I think we all know the answer!

I think ML should really fire TTC as the operator once they realize they can't manage any lines properly.

 

[TO Steve]

I haven't been following this discussion that closely so I apologize if this has already been said, but I think the overall idea of the crosstown is good, but I do believe there were bad decisions that could become quite impactful. I recall the initial designs placing the track to the south of Eglinton from Brentcliffe to Don Mills, which would have eliminated a traffic light at Leslie. Perhaps there were concerns that I'm not aware of, but I never understood why they moved it to the centre of the street for that section. The section from west of Victoria Park to (at least) east of Warden, to me, is going to be problematic. I don't see a major issue with at grade sections that have to wait for traffic lights, when you consider the significant cost savings. But with the number of traffic lights in this section, it's going to be a problem. I don't see a way trains cross this section anywhere close to the same rate trains cross the tunneled section. I suspect trains are going to cross the tunneled section much slower than they would have otherwise been able to. The section from west of Victoria Park to east of Warden should have been tunneled.