Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[EnviroTO]

Barcelona's LRT is the most similar to Eglinton East that I can think of including the green corridor and has great light prioritization. The mixed tram, LRT, and mini-metro example of Brussels is one of my favorite systems in that it shows how you can create the at grade tram, evolve it to LRT, evolve it to LRT diving under intersections, evolve it to mini-metro, and eventually full metro.

 

[ARG1]

Barcelona's LRT is the most similar to Eglinton East that I can think of including the green corridor and has great light prioritization. The mixed tram, LRT, and mini-metro example of Brussels is one of my favorite systems in that it shows how you can create the at grade tram, evolve it to LRT, evolve it to LRT diving under intersections, evolve it to mini-metro, and eventually full metro.

Now, Brussels. Brussels would've been an AMAZING comparison to Eglinton, however there is one thing separating Brussels from Eglinton - that being Brussels was designed from the beginning to eventually be converted to Metro. Eglinton was not. We are forever going to be stuck with Low Floor LRVs that even if we eventually fully grade separate the line, we will never be able to get rid of, unless we choose to completely rebuild every single station on the line. Granted, this is feasible to some extent and could be done given a 6 month shutdown of the line (although I doubt it wouldn't be delayed), but its politically difficult to justify and would be extremely expensive considering how much of the line is buried, even if we only consider the central portion of the line.

 

[Steve X]

Now, Brussels. Brussels would've been an AMAZING comparison to Eglinton, however there is one thing separating Brussels from Eglinton - that being Brussels was designed from the beginning to eventually be converted to Metro. Eglinton was not. We are forever going to be stuck with Low Floor LRVs that even if we eventually fully grade separate the line, we will never be able to get rid of, unless we choose to completely rebuild every single station on the line. Granted, this is feasible to some extent and could be done given a 6 month shutdown of the line (although I doubt it wouldn't be delayed), but its politically difficult to justify and would be extremely expensive considering how much of the line is buried, even if we only consider the central portion of the line.

Are you sure they made the right choice?

Brussels "was" designed for the conversion. The key word is "was" as it will never happen. It's been 50 years and they are still no plans to convert them. Some of their stations are tiny and only consist of 1/4 grade separation. They way they operate with one 45m LRV that is even narrower than our streetcars at a headway of 6 minutes tell you the ridership isn't even there. They chose to build a part of the station with low floor is a giant mistake as everyone has to funnel to two tiny staircase on each side to get the the higher floor then possibly backtrack to the stairs to get out of the station. Also note this design is totally inaccessible and would never even make it past the drawing board. So they built the elevators to the low level platform! This premetro concept turns out to be a very stupid idea if it never happens. Given how slow transit develops here, we might as well be stuck with low floor forever.

Even if they were to convert it, they'll have to rebuild the lower platform to match the higher platform. Then they will have to rebuild all the elevators to match the higher platform. Plus they'll have to take the line out for months to connect the current tunnel to the new tunnels. So they pretty much save no time either.

Either build the system with low floor only or build it with high floor like the Stadtbahn systems. Frankfurt U-Bahn, not Brussel would have been AMAZING for building a proper light rail system. Although when they rebuild their tram system into a light rail system, they pretty much build all the tunnels as new and rip up all the tram infrastructure to rebuilt as high floor surface stops. Yet 40% of the network isn't even fully grade separated. They haven't even succussed in converting to a full metro system either and will never use true subway trains either.

Even Calgary and Edmonton gave up on high floor and decided to go low floor. Calgary has a plan for a tunnel bypass of the city core but has yet to plan it after 40+ years. Their last outcry that the low floor subway section was too expensive tells you that it won't happen this decade.

Given that the ML contracts are for 30 years, nothing would been rebuilt till the contract expires. By 2050s, they can rebuild it if they really want.

 

[superelevation]

Most people here are avid transit users who care more about transit they can use and ride on rather than "ooh shiny impressive trains". Compared to many other places on the internet, this is arguably the least foamery transit forum I have seen. Most people want to have a serious discussion on what works, instead of "elevated because elevated is cool".

Because North American Urban Planners DEFINITELY do not have a long and storied history of making boneheaded decisions based off some idealistic goal that happens to be popular at that point in time, and developing severe Myopia when it comes to decision making...

Debatable. If it was fully grade separated, they could run the trains at significantly higher frequencies, which means while getting to the platform takes longer, on average they will have to wait for the next train for a lot less time whilst on the platform, and the actual travel time that is gained by not being on street would also significantly help offset the time (also if they only need to travel a few blocks, that's what parallel bus service is for).

Finally its important to look at Eglinton as whole. The line will be absolutely massive once fully built out, connecting to several GO, subway, and other rapid transit services (Line 1, 2, Kitchener, Barrie, Stouffville, LSE, SDBRT, Mississauga Transitway, and potentially much more), goes through all 6 of the former boroughs, the biggest airport in the region, a massive university campus, all while being on a corridor with massive development potential. All of this screams "Perfect for a Line 2 supplement".

This line is as much of a ML problem as it is a TTC problem, if not moreso. Boneheaded decisions like putting the line in the median of Eglinton east of Brentcliffe was 90% on Metrolinx, and a lot of aspects of the line such as surface stop design were butchered and neutered once Metrolinx got a hold of the project.

Most of the design including the hybrid nature was on the city - interestingly though, I don't see any good reason that if they desired it the whole thing couldn't have been on the surface, the street isn't THAT narrow

 

[ARG1]

Most of the design including the hybrid nature was on the city - interestingly though, I don't see any good reason that if they desired it the whole thing couldn't have been on the surface, the street isn't THAT narrow

I put the blame on Metrolinx because it was totally in their power to change design elements that were less than satisfactory, yet they're the ones that said "yes its a problem, but we do not want to reopen the EA".

 

[cplchanb]

I put the blame on Metrolinx because it was totally in their power to change design elements that were less than satisfactory, yet they're the ones that said "yes its a problem, but we do not want to reopen the EA".

Seriously though... if they redesigned that's another 5+ years of delay and millions and millions of dollars wasted for a revert. Are you advocating that is the best way forward simply because you have the mindset of a transit nut and armchair engineer? It was Rob Ford who advocated burying the line and made the executive decision to do so as it was a ttc project. ML inherited the project from the city as it stood so its squarely on ttc.

The province and the feds seriously need to enact law that bans major infrastructure projects from being stopped once it hits a certain design/construction milestone unless there is clear demonstration of gross negligence or dire emergency.

 

[generalcanada]

hypothetically though, in the future, 20 years from now when ridership is high enough, is it possible to build a separate elevated track? like what we have on the west side near black creek?
basically is the at-grade section basically permanent? dont see why wed need to tunnel when we already created a pretty good segregated area where elevated pillars can run?

 

[syn]

hypothetically though, in the future, 20 years from now when ridership is high enough, is it possible to build a separate elevated track? like what we have on the west side near black creek?
basically is the at-grade section basically permanent? dont see why wed need to tunnel when we already created a pretty good segregated area where elevated pillars can run?

Do you mean after it's been tunneled?

 

[generalcanada]

Do you mean after it's been tunneled?

but why would we tunnel it? we have an area on the roads for a great elevated section right above the current middle right-of-way? kinda like it had been planned before.

 

[nfitz]

Seriously though... if they redesigned that's another 5+ years of delay and millions and millions of dollars wasted for a revert.

Metrolinx DID redesign - especially north of Ellesmere. Also TTC had a design for a bridge over the river just north of Lawrence, as opposed to the now 40-metre deep tunnel and station.

Though the whole discussion is moot now - it is what it is (or what it will be).

 

[innsertnamehere]

Do we have design plans for the metrolinx plan released at all? I haven't seen any.

I know Metrolinx made some major changes at Scarborough Centre station, substantially trimming it back to a much smaller station. That was partially enabled by the new station at Sheppard which dropped the required size of the bus terminal quite significantly, but still.

 

[ARG1]

Seriously though... if they redesigned that's another 5+ years of delay and millions and millions of dollars wasted for a revert. Are you advocating that is the best way forward simply because you have the mindset of a transit nut and armchair engineer? It was Rob Ford who advocated burying the line and made the executive decision to do so as it was a ttc project. ML inherited the project from the city as it stood so its squarely on ttc.

The province and the feds seriously need to enact law that bans major infrastructure projects from being stopped once it hits a certain design/construction milestone unless there is clear demonstration of gross negligence or dire emergency.

5 years to move some track on the south side of Eglinton instead of the median? If it takes 5 years to accomplish that then I pray for the future of transit in this country. Its one thing for perfect being the enemy of the good, but when you have such obvious flaws that someone from another country can look at your project and immediately say "God, that looks really really stupid", especially one that has such a simple solution, you have a problem.

 

[Rainforest]

hypothetically though, in the future, 20 years from now when ridership is high enough, is it possible to build a separate elevated track? like what we have on the west side near black creek?
basically is the at-grade section basically permanent? dont see why wed need to tunnel when we already created a pretty good segregated area where elevated pillars can run?

Replacing the Brentcliffe-to-Kennedy section that's currently at grade, with an elevated guideway?

Maybe, but need to be looked at chunk by chunk. The Don Mills station will be in the tunnel. Between the Brentcliffe portal and the Don Mills portal, the main obstacle for the elevated guideway is the CP rail line bridge.

Between Don Mills and Kennedy, there could be issues with blocking the cross streets (where the line rises from the portal to elevated), space constraints for the stations (a station is wider than just a pair of tracks), and complains from the residents whose dwellings face the street.

I feel that it might be easier to build Lawrence East LRT to relief Eglinton, if the latter becomes overloaded. Lawrence East LRT would have to be in a deep tunnel under the Glendon campus, but that's a short expensive section, while the majority of length can remain at surface.

 

[cplchanb]

5 years to move some track on the south side of Eglinton instead of the median? If it takes 5 years to accomplish that then I pray for the future of transit in this country. Its one thing for perfect being the enemy of the good, but when you have such obvious flaws that someone from another country can look at your project and immediately say "God, that looks really really stupid", especially one that has such a simple solution, you have a problem.

Joke as we may now, its actually the truth of this sad city.

 

[syn]

but why would we tunnel it? we have an area on the roads for a great elevated section right above the current middle right-of-way? kinda like it had been planned before.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Do you mean building this line above ground partially, or building another line after this one is done as a supplement?