Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

That's why the pro-rapid transit faction proposed extending the Eglinton LRT (not a full subway) to STC. But it was shot down.

It was shot down because it doubled the budget and eliminated any available funds for other high priority transit projects, all because Ford wanted it underground.

A compromise was proposed with it being above ground from Brentcliffe and including a two-stop Sheppard extension, but Ford rejected it.

The Ford plan was ridiculous - what would happen to any future Eglinton East extensions? Would they have to transfer at Kennedy?

A foolish political move that set transit back for decades.

Are you the poster formerly known as BurlOak?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Toronto’s alternate reality SkyTrain: The Scarborough RT

The difference between Vancouver and Toronto is that the politicians (and NIMBYs) put their noses into the public transit decision making business.

From link. By Nathan Pachal, dated Tuesday, January 26, 2016.

From time to time, I must travel to Toronto for my job. Normally things are so hectic that I don’t really get a chance to explore beyond Toronto’s Downtown. Because of scheduling this time around, I had some time during the day to explore the Toronto Transit Commission’s rapid rail network.

One of the things that has always fascinated me is the Scarborough RT. This 6.4km line was built using the same technology as our SkyTrain network in Metro Vancouver. The RT opened in 1985, the same year that SkyTrain officially started operation.

For two systems built using the same technology, during the same time period, they couldn’t be any more different. In Vancouver, the SkyTrain network is operated by computers. In Toronto, the RT is operated by a human in each RT train set. This was due to political reasons. Because the vehicles weren’t designed for operator cabs, space is at a premium in the RT vehicles.

One of the things about TransLink is that it is always working to make sure the transit system is in an excellent state of repair. If you go to any SkyTrain station, or ride in any SkyTrain vehicle, they are all in good shape.

The TTC has not invested in keeping the Scarborough RT in a state of good repair. It has only done the required maintenance to keep the RT from falling apart. The stations have missing ceiling bits, light fixtures are missing coverings, and while the stations are clean, they haven’t aged well.

When I was riding the RT, the announcements were garbled, and it was noisy in the cars. People really love the SkyTrian in Metro Vancouver, but people in Toronto hate the RT. They hate it so much that the City of Toronto is planning on ripping it up, and replacing it with a combination of subway and conventional light rail.

I snapped some pictures of my experience with the Scarborough RT.

Click on image to link to album

While some people get hung-up about transit technology (I used to.) The Scarborough RT experience shows me that great rapid transit service is more about maintenance, frequency, and location than SkyTrian, subway, light rail, or BRT.

 

[Shining Tree]

It was shot down because it doubled the budget and eliminated any available funds for other high priority transit projects, all because Ford wanted it underground.

A compromise was proposed with it being above ground from Brentcliffe and including a two-stop Sheppard extension, but Ford rejected it.

The Ford plan was ridiculous - what would happen to any future Eglinton East extensions? Would they have to transfer at Kennedy?

A foolish political move that set transit back for decades.

Are you the poster formerly known as BurlOak?

That's an interesting debate.
If Toronto vowed to never build another transit line, would you prefer
the ECLRT connected to SRT or
a separate on-street ECLRT, a disconnected SRT, and an SELRT plus FWLRT.
I'd probably answer the Relief Line.
If we'd plan on spending a few Billion every year on transit (as it appeared we were heading at the time), then I would vote for doing the ECLRT/SRT right, instead of 4 half-ass projects.

But if appears many people in the 2011-12 era thought that we don't need any more rapid transit and that on-street LRT was the solution to all our problems.

 

[Streety McCarface]

It was shot down because it doubled the budget and eliminated any available funds for other high priority transit projects, all because Ford wanted it underground.

A compromise was proposed with it being above ground from Brentcliffe and including a two-stop Sheppard extension, but Ford rejected it.

The Ford plan was ridiculous - what would happen to any future Eglinton East extensions? Would they have to transfer at Kennedy?

A foolish political move that set transit back for decades.

Are you the poster formerly known as BurlOak?

You can't make the argument that a Surface Eglinton LRT line is in any way better than an underground line if said surface line, as it stands, will not have signal priority and has stop spacing smaller than that of an express bus. The entire crosstown was poorly thought out and even more poorly executed. Now we're stuck with a line that was supposed to be flexible but will likely be severely limited by the way it was built for decades to come. Not a fan of a Tunneled Crosstown between Don Mills and Kennedy, but I'd much rather take a 5% property tax to pay for a full crosstown that's a subway if the alternative is a surface LRV with zero priority.

 

[syn]

You can't make the argument that a Surface Eglinton LRT line is in any way better than an underground line if said surface line, as it stands, will not have signal priority and has stop spacing smaller than that of an express bus. The entire crosstown was poorly thought out and even more poorly executed. Now we're stuck with a line that was supposed to be flexible but will likely be severely limited by the way it was built for decades to come. Not a fan of a Tunneled Crosstown between Don Mills and Kennedy, but I'd much rather take a 5% property tax to pay for a full crosstown that's a subway if the alternative is a surface LRV with zero priority.

That isn't my argument.

Ford could've worked with them to ensure the above ground sections had signal priority. The problem is that Ford wasn't interested in working with anyone, and wasn't interested in developing a sensible transit plan based on budget and need. He was fighting his imaginary "War on the Car".

 

[OneCity]

From an engineering point of view - I see many opportunities to improve on the B-D subway extension.
But politically, I understand why it is going ahead.
If opposition to the SSE would say that they agree with a continuous fully grade-separated connection to STC, then it could have been re-opened. Instead they are saying they want to go to the David Miller transfer plan. If I were a politician, I don't think I would open to the door to change, if I knew the change was to go back to 12 years ago. So many alternatives to provide continuous rapid transit were discussed and rejected that now that they have a solution that received acceptance, I wouldn't open it up for farther discussion.

The Miller admin plan was as political and shady as they come. Lots of LRT track, not much detail. Few (even on UT ) expected this outcome for Scarborough. Most residents felt it was a disconnected farce, our townhalls were full of others telling and selling us about LRT as the greatest blanket technology, but they were not listening to us otherwise this disconnected transfer crap wouldn't have happened. Fishy special interest groups seeded in these townhalls selling and acting as the residents voice to ensure the plans went thru past the public. It was a rigged game and very bizarre. Keep in mind Scarborough council clearly requested the BDL be extended at the start of Millers term, but apathy was already strong in Scarborough and to just build something and working on other issues became they way.

The plan was rightfully called out at the top of an election for all to see. It was obvious what the issues were yet many outside Politicians and media choose to attack to protect political affiliated interests, legacies and these special interests instead of working with the voters of this massive Borough.

99% elected officials support of all stripes and level withing Scarborough agreed to build the subways to the Centre. 99% and all Mayors, runner ups and Premiers and runner ups since have supported the subway to the Centre. This LRT plan should never have happened atleast in the unfortunate design state it was in, but the fight by outside political interests to protect the plan so viciously agaisnt the people who live in the surrounding areas was disgraceful and beyond disrespectful to the people who live here...

 

[sixrings]

The Miller admin plan was as political and shady as they come. Lots of LRT track, not much detail. Few (even on UT ) expected this outcome for Scarborough. Most residents felt it was a disconnected farce, our townhalls were full of others telling and selling us about LRT as the greatest blanket technology, but they were not listening to us otherwise this disconnected transfer crap wouldn't have happened. Fishy special interest groups seeded in these townhalls selling and acting as the residents voice to ensure the plans went thru past the public. It was a rigged game and very bizarre. Keep in mind Scarborough council clearly requested the BDL be extended at the start of Millers term, but apathy was already strong in Scarborough and to just build something and working on other issues became they way.

The plan was rightfully called out at the top of an election for all to see. It was obvious what the issues were yet many outside Politicians and media choose to attack to protect political affiliated interests, legacies and these special interests instead of working with the voters of this massive Borough.

99% elected officials support of all stripes and level withing Scarborough agreed to build the subways to the Centre. 99% and all Mayors, runner ups and Premiers and runner ups since have supported the subway to the Centre. This LRT plan should never have happened atleast in the unfortunate design state it was in, but the fight by outside political interests to protect the plan so viciously agaisnt the people who live in the surrounding areas was disgraceful and beyond disrespectful to the people who live here...

Please refrain from posting after drinking and or smoking.

 

[Shining Tree]

99% elected officials support of all stripes and level withing Scarborough agreed to build the subways to the Centre. 99% and all Mayors, runner ups and Premiers and runner ups since have supported the subway to the Centre. This LRT plan should never have happened atleast in the unfortunate design state it was in, but the fight by outside political interests to protect the plan so viciously agaisnt the people who live in the surrounding areas was disgraceful and beyond disrespectful to the people who live here...

It really is about connecting Scarborough.
There were no complaints about LRT - as long as it was connected to ECLRT. There were no complaints out of Scarborough about that plan - proving that it was not a dislike of a technology, but a dislike for a discontinuous transit line.

 

[Steve X]

The Miller admin plan was as political and shady as they come. Lots of LRT track, not much detail. Few (even on UT ) expected this outcome for Scarborough. Most residents felt it was a disconnected farce, our townhalls were full of others telling and selling us about LRT as the greatest blanket technology, but they were not listening to us otherwise this disconnected transfer crap wouldn't have happened. Fishy special interest groups seeded in these townhalls selling and acting as the residents voice to ensure the plans went thru past the public. It was a rigged game and very bizarre. Keep in mind Scarborough council clearly requested the BDL be extended at the start of Millers term, but apathy was already strong in Scarborough and to just build something and working on other issues became they way.

The plan was rightfully called out at the top of an election for all to see. It was obvious what the issues were yet many outside Politicians and media choose to attack to protect political affiliated interests, legacies and these special interests instead of working with the voters of this massive Borough.

99% elected officials support of all stripes and level withing Scarborough agreed to build the subways to the Centre. 99% and all Mayors, runner ups and Premiers and runner ups since have supported the subway to the Centre. This LRT plan should never have happened atleast in the unfortunate design state it was in, but the fight by outside political interests to protect the plan so viciously agaisnt the people who live in the surrounding areas was disgraceful and beyond disrespectful to the people who live here...

AFAIK TTC did a lot of preliminary studies and a concept of how LRT will look like is developed. Indeed they rushed through the proposal and shot down any alternatives such as an underground alignment for the Don Mills line in East York.

IMO Scarbrough is still better off with a SRT extension to Malvern than this L2EE to Sheppard/McCowan.

Like all plans, everything is just presented and shoved in the face. The OL isn't even well formulated and no, the public doesn't have a choice. I'll say the process is a step backwards compared to Transit City. At least we know it was LRT and how it'll look like. We still don't know what is OL and we are forced to accept it.

The LRT plan wasn't perfect but some of the proposed lines would never see a subway. Finch West is a good example. It was either LRT or buses. Subway is never an option and I'm glad this line is able to proceed. Sheppard east of McCowan will never see any form of rail transit with this Line 4 subway extension plan in the next 50 years.

 

[Shining Tree]

AFAIK TTC did a lot of preliminary studies and a concept of how LRT will look like is developed. Indeed they rushed through the proposal and shot down any alternatives such as an underground alignment for the Don Mills line in East York.

IMO Scarbrough is still better off with a SRT extension to Malvern than this L2EE to Sheppard/McCowan.

Agree fully if you mean a connected SRT and not a stub.
Sheppard kind of taught us that stubs don't work.

Like all plans, everything is just presented and shoved in the face. The OL isn't even well formulated and no, the public doesn't have a choice. I'll say the process is a step backwards compared to Transit City. At least we know it was LRT and how it'll look like. We still don't know what is OL and we are forced to accept it.

But nobody cares about the type of vehicle. They care about;
1) Is it continuous - does it connect to enough destinations and other rapid transit?
2) Is it rapid - is stop spacing about 800 to 1200 m?
3) Is it reliably - are there are potential disruptions from traffic?
4) Will it have the capacity needed for immediate and future?

The type of vehicle is almost the last decision that needs to be made, so in fact Transit City was backwards, and forced LRT into many situations were it did not belong - because that was the first decision made.

The LRT plan wasn't perfect but some of the proposed lines would never see a subway. Finch West is a good example. It was either LRT or buses. Subway is never an option and I'm glad this line is able to proceed. Sheppard east of McCowan will never see any form of rail transit with this Line 4 subway extension plan in the next 50 years.

There were 2 options for Finch West.
a) Elevated.
b) SmartTrack, GORER, or whatever you want to call it at Woodbine Racetrack, and provide bus. Then take passengers to either Finch West (which is already 4km shorter than the bus route when this thing was planned), or Woodbine. It likely would have served people better. Locals get their additional stops that are only possible with buses, and distance travelers get more options to connect with rapid transit.

Maybe Sheppard East of McCowan doesn't need rail transit. The part through Vic Park to Kennedy likely needs more than on-street LRT - which a grade-separated line would have accomplished. Buses would suffice East of there - and of course the bus could connect to Sheppard line at Agincourt, or connect with the connected SRT, which cuts through Sheppard east of Markham Road.

 

[syn]

AFAIK TTC did a lot of preliminary studies and a concept of how LRT will look like is developed. Indeed they rushed through the proposal and shot down any alternatives such as an underground alignment for the Don Mills line in East York.

IMO Scarbrough is still better off with a SRT extension to Malvern than this L2EE to Sheppard/McCowan.

Like all plans, everything is just presented and shoved in the face. The OL isn't even well formulated and no, the public doesn't have a choice. I'll say the process is a step backwards compared to Transit City. At least we know it was LRT and how it'll look like. We still don't know what is OL and we are forced to accept it.

The LRT plan wasn't perfect but some of the proposed lines would never see a subway. Finch West is a good example. It was either LRT or buses. Subway is never an option and I'm glad this line is able to proceed. Sheppard east of McCowan will never see any form of rail transit with this Line 4 subway extension plan in the next 50 years.

You could also argue that for Eglinton east of Kennedy.

I agree there was a lot more transparency with previous plans.

The type of vehicle is almost the last decision that needs to be made, so in fact Transit City was backwards, and forced LRT into many situations were it did not belong - because that was the first decision made.

The type of vehicle used is a critical factor in determining capacity.

LRTs happened to be the best solution for Transit City because there was no need for subways in almost all of the areas it was being implemented in.

 

[OneCity]

It really is about connecting Scarborough.
There were no complaints about LRT - as long as it was connected to ECLRT. There were no complaints out of Scarborough about that plan - proving that it was not a dislike of a technology, but a dislike for a discontinuous transit line.

100%

*Connect the Centre to a main transit artery
*Connect Malvern to the existing Sheppard subway stub

Common sense. Those were two major priorities known and ignored within Transit City (amongst a few other minor design flaws on the SMLRT).

This should have never been up for serious debate in expanding the network at the City level, moreso once tabled again with unanimous (understatement) intra Scarborough democratic support. Really shameful politics in various aspects within this City.

 

[kali]

^Two subway lines in Scarborough is not common sense, it's madness. And I say that as someone who supports a three stop elevated extension.

 

[Towered]

2 subways in Scarborough is fine, as long as everything within 1 km of a station is zoned mixed-use, high-density. No height limit.

 

[kali]

^Better than nothing, but didn't really work for Line 4.