Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[gweed123]

I have to say, this is pretty unexpected, but good news none the less. I had grudgingly accepted the SLRT, and had hoped Metrolinx would elevate Eglinton East instead. With the subway option back on the table, elevating Eglinton East is no longer essential.

What I'd like to see is this:

-Subway extension from Kennedy to Sheppard & McCowan

-Downgrade Sheppard to a BRT and take that extra money and put it towards the subway extension

-Make up for the loss of the SRT extension by creating 3 branches of the Sheppard BRT: Don Mills to the zoo (mixed traffic after Neilson), Don Mills to Centennial via Progress (mixed traffic on Progress), Don Mills to Malvern Centre via Neilson (queue jump lanes on Neilson). This would serve a lot of trip patterns that either aren't covered in the current LRT plan, or that would be underserved with the loss of the LRT plan.

-This would also eliminate the need for the Conlins Yard, saving quite a bit of money, especially given the cost was split between the two LRT projects.

I think BRT would be sufficient on Sheppard, because it would make ridership along Sheppard multi-directional, lowering the pphpd. The current LRT plan basically has the majority of ridership going to Don Mills. With a subway terminus roughly mid-route, there would be a substantial turnover mid-route, and there would also be a peak counter flow of people coming from west of McCowan heading eastbound in the AM peak.

 

[BurlOak]

By that measure, you don't need LRT for most of Sheppard East either. Ever looked at demand east of Agincourt? Yet demand in the west was used to justify LRT on the entire corridor. In reality, Sheppard would be just fine with a short subway extension and buses the rest of the way.



He's running in a safer riding where a Scarborough subway isn't that much of an issue. If I was opposing him, I would pin him on why he supported the LRT going to STC from Kennedy instead of continuing east on Eglinton to Kingston Road as it should have. What's the sense in breaking Eglinton up at Kennedy? That decision screws over all of Southeast Scarborough. And he should get nailed for it.

About 35 years ago, when the decision was made to align the Kennedy station East-West and the tail tracks extended under the GO line, it appears they decided the SE Scarborough would some day get a subway to Kingston road. After all, a curve up McCowan would not allow a station until Lawrence if STC was the planned destination.

Since the SRT is built on the West side of the GO tracks, it makes sense to connect it with Eglinon LRT. Then since the passenger volumes are too hogh, there is a need to grade separate the Eglinton portion.

I agree that curving up to STC may shut out SE Scarborough, but if the DM to Kennedy portion is in-median, then the Eglinton LRT east of Kennedy would not be continuous anyways, since the part west of Kennedy could not handle it. . The east part (SMLRT) looks like it will not be built.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Gee. Weeks before an election, Liberals decide it's a good idea to sink a few hundred million into not building something in the GTA and building something more expensive in its place. That's always worked out well in the past.

 

[gweed123]

Gee. Weeks before an election, Liberals decide it's a good idea to sink a few hundred million into not building something in the GTA and building something more expensive in its place. That's always worked out well in the past.

I admit the timing is suspicious, but I think in the end it's the right move, especially if they can shuffle money around from another project (*cough* Sheppard East LRT *cough*) in order to minimize the additional funds required.

 

[Dan416]

Just like the power plant cancellation, I applaud this move (if it happens).

The only problem, in my opinion, is that the Liberals keep coming to these decisions too late and costing too much in cancellations and useless work. But, better late than never.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The province will only pay a part of it. This will be the province's opportunity to force "revenue tools" on Toronto. And city council will vote for it for several reasons:

1) to spite Ford
2) to pay for the subway upgrade
3) because the ongoing revenue will help pay for other transit priorities

Good then. If Toronto wants this they have to pitch in.

Then they should have the foresight to upgrade other projects in exchange for adopting the province's revenue tools.

-Eglinton 100% grade separated.
-Eglinton Extension to both the Airport and Eglinton GO Station in the east
-Sheppard Subway completed from Downsview to Sheppard and McCowan

Besides, a victory from the Conservative and the revenue tools goes out the window

Yes, but Bring back Scarborough Malvern LRT as well.

 

[gweed123]

The province will only pay a part of it. This will be the province's opportunity to force "revenue tools" on Toronto. And city council will vote for it for several reasons:

1) to spite Ford
2) to pay for the subway upgrade
3) because the ongoing revenue will help pay for other transit priorities

I would love to see the Bloor-Danforth extension offered up in Council as a condition of approving ongoing revenue tools. That would really twist Ford into an ideological pretzel. He'd have to choose between subways, subways, subways, and raising taxes. Either way, he would lose.

Or heck, even if Toronto approved a Toronto-specific revenue tool with the explicit promise that the revenue be used for the Bloor-Danforth extension first, and the DRL second, I would consider that a win.

 

[Electrify]

One good thing about taking the subway route is that the Scarborough Centre growth node will be connected to downtown by subway, thus all of these centres within Toronto will be connected. Under the original plan, while Etobicoke, North York, and Eglinton centres would be connected to downtown by subway, Scarborough was the odd man out separated by an extra transfer.

Likewise this also helps to better connect Durham with Toronto as well. The old plans saw Viva, Zum, and MiWay express buses connecting directly with downtown bound subways. Meanwhile Dart, Durham's BRT service, would have to endure an extra transfer to get downtown.

In my fantasy map land, I would see a branch of the Sheppard line detour south to Scarborough Centre and Centennial College, and back up north to Malvern Town Centre.

 

[kEiThZ]

@denfromoakvillemilton

SMLRT is useless. It's a Morningside bus replacement. Southeast Scarborough would be better served by extending the Eglinton line till Kingston Road and leaving the Morningside bus as is.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm enjoying my schadenfreud watching Steve Munro get apoplectic that his Scarborough LRT network dream is coming undone. I had warned a long time ago that switching over the LRT was simply not politically sellable, in no small part because of the shutdown.

The transit god needs to have some humility and a little less disdain for the average citizen who is both a taxpayer and transit user.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

@denfromoakvillemilton

SMLRT is useless. It's a Morningside bus replacement. Southeast Scarborough would be better served by extending the Eglinton line till Kingston Road and leaving the Morningside bus as is.

SMLRT and Eglinton crosstown used the same tech right? The only difference is one is above and one is under the ground? I support Eglinton going to Kingston Road and the Terminal 1, maybe past that to Hurontario.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm enjoying my schadenfreud watching Steve Munro get apoplectic that his Scarborough LRT network dream is coming undone. I had warned a long time ago that switching over the LRT was simply not politically sellable, in no small part because of the shutdown.

The transit god needs to have some humility and a little less disdain for the average citizen who is both a taxpayer and transit user.

He just supported the cheapest option. You even admit this is political. Scarborough wanted a subway because everyone else has one.

 

[ssiguy2]

Well if they want to extend the Danforth to Sheppard then the good news is that it could take less money than the SRT.

According to the Metrolinx update, the 3 km spur will cost $158 for 3 km and that is heavy rail. There is absolutely no reason why they can't bring the Danforth ext in for the same price plus the cost of the stations at approx $100/piece. They have actually built the Spur quite quickly and if they got their acts together they could have Danforth line to Sheppard opening at nearly the same time as the Spadina.

 

[Forgotten]

I'm enjoying my schadenfreud watching Steve Munro get apoplectic that his Scarborough LRT network dream is coming undone. I had warned a long time ago that switching over the LRT was simply not politically sellable, in no small part because of the shutdown.

The transit god needs to have some humility and a little less disdain for the average citizen who is both a taxpayer and transit user.

The funniest part about this whole thing is people in Scarborough will have to wait out in the cold for the bus until the end of time to take them to the terminal at STC and have nice long walk to get to the trains. No wonder people in Scarborough poll the lowest when it comes to paying up for more.

 

[Electrify]

He just supported the cheapest option. You even admit this is political. Scarborough wanted a subway because everyone else has one.

Wait, what? Scarborough had more subway than 3 out of 5 of the former municipalities. In fact up until the Sheppard line, it arguably had more rapid transit than any other municipality besides Toronto. Etobicoke has a short stub making its way into its city limits, while East York may have had a small stretch actually within its limits, with the rest just beyond the border. York really got screwed since they have absolutely nothing, except maybe Old Mill station located in a park in a remote corner of its boundaries. To add insult to injury, they were all set to get their own line before Harris cancelled it.

The problem with the SRT isn't the line itself, but how it is operated and designed. If Scarborough councillors opted to concentrate transit oriented developments along the line and extend it throughout the former city and beyond, purchased more trains to increase frequency, etc it could have been a fine rapid transit line. Instead it was treated as a stillborn after its completion, a victim of an ideology where cars were supreme and only the poor would take transit.