Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[k10ery]

k10:

Beware of winning the battle and losing the war.

AoD

I see the importance of getting something built. To me, the real war is to keep politicians out of what are essentially technical decisions, and to prevent them treating transportation projects as a pork barrel.

 

[k10ery]

I'm not sure I understand the anti-subway sentiment of some here (and at city hall).

If they can find a way to fund this, it seems reasonable enough. The predicted ridership levels from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre are quite high, and presumably will only be higher if it continues to Sheppard and intersects the Sheppard LRT. The travel times are excellent. This stretch was certainly predicted to have higher ridership than any other of the Transit City LRT lines (other perhaps than Don Mills south of Eglinton - which also is a subway candidate) - this line wasn't even part of the original 7-line Transit City plan.

The only downsides I see, are loss of rapid transit to the existing Lawrence East area, loss of transit to Centennial, and future extension to Malvern. The latter could be done as a spur off the Sheppard LRT.

Come on, this is politics. Forecast demand doesn't warrant subway capacity. Period. Spending a billion to save 40,000 people a transfer. There is no way that passes a cost benefit analysis.

From Chris Selley: "And at 1:52 p.m. today, a message arrived in my Inbox from the Liberals confirming exactly what they’re up to. The e-mail reminds us that former TTC chair and current NDP by-election candidate Adam Giambrone did not support a new subway for Scarborough; and not only that, he floated the idea of ferrying Scarborough residents downtown on boats! The temerity!"

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In my ideal world, the BD is extended to Sheppard/McCowan and the Sheppard line (subway) is extended to that same intersection - from there you run an LRT network out into Scarborough.

Brilliant. The one and no only circumstance I'd support a Sheppard extension. Even though it would.be under used.

 

[nfitz]

Come on, this is politics. Forecast demand doesn't warrant subway capacity.

This isn't like Sheppard though, where the the subway extension would handle a peak of 5,000 an hour. In their January 2013 report, TTC estimated the 2031 ridership of the Danforth extension to be almost 10,000 an hour.

 

[nfitz]

Brilliant. The one and no only circumstance I'd support a Sheppard extension. Even though it would.be under used.

Surely, if there's already to be a subway to Scarborough Centre, and if Sheppard subway ridership was forecasted to be higher if it went to Scarborough Centre than along Sheppard East. Wouldn't what your supporting:

a) have lower ridership than the pathetic ridership already forecast because it's going along Sheppard instead of to Scarborough Centre
b) have lower ridership than forecast, because for some riders, they'd now use the Danforth subway instead of the Sheppard subway.

 

[GenerationW]

I see the importance of getting something built. To me, the real war is to keep politicians out of what are essentially technical decisions, and to prevent them treating transportation projects as a pork barrel.

Don't hold your breath on that one. These things never get approved without political influence.

 

[kEiThZ]

Brilliant. The one and no only circumstance I'd support a Sheppard extension. Even though it would.be under used.

That was essentially the original vision behind the Sheppard subway. A Scarborough Town Centre-Downsview Crosstown. So many people forget that. I'd be happy with the LRT if they were willing to convert the stubway to LRT and run the line through. LRT will allow them to extend Sheppard all the way to Weston in the West. Otherwise, the best we'll get is a Downsview-Yonge extension. That's good, but not the best northern Crosstown. The ultimate goal in 50 years would see Crosstowns on Finch Sheppard and Eglinton.

This isn't like Sheppard though, where the the subway extension would handle a peak of 5,000 an hour. In their January 2013 report, TTC estimated the 2031 ridership of the Danforth extension to be almost 10,000 an hour.

Exactly. This is what I find extremely frustrating about this debate. The pro-subway crowd resorts to stupid rhetoric about streetcars and blocking traffic. The pro-LRT crowd then takes a hardline position that rules out any subway expansion at all, even where there might be a case for it. And STC-Kennedy is definitely one corridor where a case can be made for it.

This does not even rule out further LRT expansion in northeast Scarborough. I have always maintained that if desired an LRT could be built along Progress, essentially mirroring the SRT corridor. And it would not have to be grade separated since the demand would be a lot less. A little over 5 km down Progress from Scarborough Town Centre to Malvern Town Centre. 6 km it you want to go up Neilson and end at Finch. Costs would be similar to Sheppard per km. It's definitely optional and in the long term. But it's an option. A subway doesn't rule out LRT in the future. Even when trenched through the hydro corridor I figure the whole thing would be no more than 400m total.

 

[kEiThZ]

Come on, this is politics. Forecast demand doesn't warrant subway capacity. Period. Spending a billion to save 40,000 people a transfer. There is no way that passes a cost benefit analysis.

By that measure, you don't need LRT for most of Sheppard East either. Ever looked at demand east of Agincourt? Yet demand in the west was used to justify LRT on the entire corridor. In reality, Sheppard would be just fine with a short subway extension and buses the rest of the way.

From Chris Selley: "And at 1:52 p.m. today, a message arrived in my Inbox from the Liberals confirming exactly what they’re up to. The e-mail reminds us that former TTC chair and current NDP by-election candidate Adam Giambrone did not support a new subway for Scarborough; and not only that, he floated the idea of ferrying Scarborough residents downtown on boats! The temerity!"

He's running in a safer riding where a Scarborough subway isn't that much of an issue. If I was opposing him, I would pin him on why he supported the LRT going to STC from Kennedy instead of continuing east on Eglinton to Kingston Road as it should have. What's the sense in breaking Eglinton up at Kennedy? That decision screws over all of Southeast Scarborough. And he should get nailed for it.

 

[Adjei]

With the province broke and I doubt Toronto has that kind of money, I wonder how this will be paid for.

 

[Solid Snake]

With the province broke and I doubt Toronto has that kind of money, I wonder how this will be paid for.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ntario-liberals-on-another-vote-buying-spree/

Not two weeks ago, Metrolinx, the provincial body tasked with dragging transit in the Greater Toronto Area out of the Stone Age, expressed exasperation at Toronto City Council’s inability to choose between a subway and an LRT to replace a crumbling elevated train in Scarborough, east of downtown. Metrolinx claims to have already spend $85-million on the LRT, which Council had approved and then unapproved and then called into question again. Metrolinx said a subway would cost nearly $1-billion more than the LRT option. And it wanted a firm answer from Council — subway or LRT — by Aug. 2 at the latest.

Considering it hasn’t two dimes to rub together, and has Metrolinx for some degree of political cover, you might expect the governing Ontario Liberals to support the LRT option. But curiously enough — OK, it’s not really curious — reports suggested that provincial transportation minister Glen Murray was willing to reopen the issue yet again.

This week, he ramped it up. Mr. Murray told The Globe and Mail that not only was he open to a subway, but that the province wasn’t “asking [City Hall] for money” to make it happen.

“It will be over my dead body that Scarborough goes wanting for high speed, rapid transit,” he continued. “I’m not prepared for people in Scarborough to miss this round … whatever mountain I have to climb as transportation minister, I’m prepared.”

Crikey. The guy runs his mouth something fierce, but that’s much too far to walk back. It’s almost like there’s an election on or something.

Indeed there is: a by-election, in Scarborough-Guildwood, which is in Scarborough. And at 1:52 p.m. today, a message arrived in my Inbox from the Liberals confirming exactly what they’re up to. The e-mail reminds us that former TTC chair and current NDP by-election candidate Adam Giambrone did not support a new subway for Scarborough; and not only that, he floated the idea of ferrying Scarborough residents downtown on boats! The temerity!

Interestingly enough, his Liberal opponent, Mitzie Hunter, was until recently CEO of CivicAction, a group dedicated to setting aside partisanship and petty squabbles and improving public transportation in the GTA for everyone. During her “leave of absence,” however, she is free to say things like this:

“I want to work with Scarborough residents and develop solutions to tackle the tough issues of employment, housing, and transit. Only the Ontario Liberals have serious plans to improve transit for all Scarborough residents.”

The only possible implication is, the Liberals will build a Scarborough subway. In which case, Ms. Hunter is rubbishing a plan that until very recently she was enthusiastically promoting. That can’t possibly be good for CivicAction, which is urging local politicians of all stripes to commit to promoting new taxes and fees to raise $30-billion for infrastructure projects. We’ll see if John Tory’s chairmanship of the organization is enough to prevent tax-hating conservatives from portraying the organization as a Liberal front .

In the meantime, apparently having thrown its weight behind the Scarborough subway, Kathleen Wynne’s shiny new Liberals look remarkably like Dalton McGuinty’s cynical old Liberals. If they throw away $85-million to cancel an unpopular project, and then spend hundreds of millions more to replace it, just when a Liberal riding happened to be at stake, would that remind you of anything? Of course it would. And just like last time, we can be sure the other parties will offer weak objections, if any, because hey, who wouldn’t prefer a subway to an LRT?

On the bright side, a Scarborough subway is indeed practically supportable. But by jumping so cynically into this can of worms, Mr. Murray and Company have made it more difficult for themselves down the line if they try to cast themselves as the voice of reason on transit. Why wouldn’t every other municipality ask for the same deference Toronto’s dysfunctional Council has received? Why does Scarborough get a subway but Sheppard and Finch don’t?

A minor supplementary annoyance to the gas plant was that the Liberals ended up winning the ridings in question handily; they almost certainly didn’t need to squander $600-million to buy them. Well, not only is Ms. Hunter very unlikely to lose Scarborough-Guildwood — the Liberal was more than 20 points clear of the Tory in 2011 — but no outcome in the five by-elections being held can even affect the balance of power at Queen’s Park. The Liberals might not be doing this out of political expediency, in other words. They might be doing it simply because this is just who they are.

 

[Solid Snake]

See above...

Elections=They buy votes...

Politicians are so predictable...

 

[Voltz]

Council will probably just vote for a subway with promises to look into funding the difference in the future. But that funding will never come because council will vote against all revenue sources, again, and the project will end up on hold for a few years.

And yet again, subways will get in the way of real transit progress.

 

[kEiThZ]

The province will only pay a part of it. This will be the province's opportunity to force "revenue tools" on Toronto. And city council will vote for it for several reasons:

1) to spite Ford
2) to pay for the subway upgrade
3) because the ongoing revenue will help pay for other transit priorities

 

[Solid Snake]

The province will only pay a part of it. This will be the province's opportunity to force "revenue tools" on Toronto. And city council will vote for it for several reasons:

1) to spite Ford
2) to pay for the subway upgrade
3) because the ongoing revenue will help pay for other transit priorities

Then they should have the foresight to upgrade other projects in exchange for adopting the province's revenue tools.

-Eglinton 100% grade separated.
-Eglinton Extension to both the Airport and Eglinton GO Station in the east
-Sheppard Subway completed from Downsview to Sheppard and McCowan

Besides, a victory from the Conservative and the revenue tools goes out the window

 

[Adjei]

Yes I want to see where the province is going to find close to 1 billion needed, fun times ahead.