Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

If I understand you, this is what you suggest.
I assume SRT would be different trains than GO, so on the LSE, you are saving space to 2 tracks for SRT, and 2 tracks would be for all GO service. Would a 3rd track even fit (5 total). I would assume with RER to Markham and Pickering, 4 tracks would be needed for Metrolinx.

That is why I considered going beyond Kennedy as well, but essentially following the Gatineau Hydro corridor and the Don Valley. I would expect that the conventional DRL would need full service on the north leg if it were to actually relieve Yonge.

Well since you and KC are already talking about the fantasy options, this is one I've thought about for years and would stand behind. And besides we got almost 3km of existing ROW through SC between Stouff Sub and McCowan Yd, then another +2.5km from there to Progress/Sheppard effectively set aside. Pretty sizable, and a bad thing to waste. Since RL is still in a fairly malleable, dynamic stage hard not to consider combining the two. How I'd envision the connection would be via Ellesmere and CP RoW (but as subway so not on any mainline). Big bonus is it travels on a diagonal so in a way can capture more riders, but also offers a good compromise between both any Sheppard RT option and SSE.

 

[BurlOak]

Well since you and KC are already talking about the fantasy options, this is one I've thought about for years and would stand behind. And besides we got almost 3km of existing ROW through SC between Stouff Sub and McCowan Yd, then another +2.5km from there to Progress/Sheppard effectively set aside. Pretty sizable, and a bad thing to waste. Since RL is still in a fairly malleable, dynamic stage hard not to consider combining the two. How I'd envision the connection would be via Ellesmere and CP RoW (but as subway so not on any mainline). Big bonus is it travels on a diagonal so in a way can capture more riders, but also offers a good compromise between both any Sheppard RT option and SSE.

View attachment 134875

My main concern is the capacity.
I would assume that this transit line will not have the capacity of the Yonge subway. What will it be, maybe 30,ooo ppdph. The elevated line through Scarborough (especially if it goes to Marlvern) would require service for 10k to 15k ppdph on day 1 (being 2025). I would expect that if we want real relief of the Yonge line, the Don Mills branch would also have to take more than 15k in year 1.

I agree to reuse the corridor from Midland to Centennial to Malvern. I found that SRT to Gatineau Hydro corridor (the one that eventually crosses at Morningside and 401) was the easiest. (it would take up some space in the GO corridor though. I could easily live with you route following the Stouffville Rail corridor - since this is CP, I am not sure if you expect to get space in the corridor, or run over top of it.

I had this Scarborough line (starting in Malvern) going dowtown (via DVP) and then to the Ex.
The traditional DRL would start at Seneca College (Finch), follow Don Mills down to Thorncliffe, down Pape, follow the current route along Queen, and come back up north on the west side (I still haven't figured out the best route here).

 

[OneCity]

The original question was about Eglinton LRT, and whether it had to be fully grade-separated. On Eglinton, I actually disagree with you (I think the current design is just fine).

While on the SSE matter, you and I are on the same page.

I really hope they build Eglinton East for the improved UTSC connection and to revitalize some warn hoods fronting Eglinton and most important because once again nothing will be built in these neglected areas. There are just enough benefits for me to accept the line even with its poor implementation but without a doubt if the average resident out here has it pointed out they are about to lose two vehicle lanes on Eglinton and Kingston rd they will rightfully flip and it could be easily be back to the drawing board.

The narrow ideology tied into the LRT implementation has been glaring and absolutely not helping to relieve congestion intelligently for certain areas. As we see now with Eglinton West this nonsense is clearly not helping the City move forward as these "experts" have chosen to completely ignore a main form of transit that will likely be used for centuries to come in these areas. Transit City was a band aid ideology that has lacked key details to integrate from the start and is continuing to provide gifts for Politicians willing to point out the obvious design flaws to the residents. While some refuse to believe it the SSE is actually the only line that's basically a guarantee to be built and as of now the City couldn't even design that properly. The environment has too many on council standing firm on the flawed details of Transit City and have simply refused to budge and work with other areas

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The actual idea of the extension isn't a bad idea at all. It's just given all the various crisis within the TTC, it doesn't seem like it should be at the forefront. The DRL was way more important then any of the projects that have been built in the past decade, and the SSE seems to be another thing cutting in line. There's already rapid transit to the STC, it's just not as desirable. Should there be a subway, yes, with actual stops between the STC and Kennedy. But, do we have to build a 6km "express" subway right now, costs-be-damned, no.

KC’s post is a voice-of-reason compromise position. Unlike pretty much everyone on this thread, certainly including me, he’s willing to acknowledge the messy political reality and attempt to listen to both sides. I don’t actually agree with his analysis of SSE itself, but even I have to admit there’s no data-driven argument to say it should never be built. I also have to realize that the amalgamated City is here to stay, like it or not, so we are forced to find a way beyond the polarized and ultimately sterile back and forth between the two camps. So, thanks KC. Also, please be Mayor.

KC’s post sounds like a voice-of-reason compromise position, but that position is also completely politically untenable. Realistically, saying no the the subway right now is essentially equivalent to an outright cancelation of the project, and there will be a huge political price to pay for that. You’re not ever going to see anyone running for mayor running on a platform of delaying the SSE.

Also, the SRT is falling apart, and something needs to be done to fix that. Delaying the SRT replacement is not an option.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I have a pretty strong suspicion it will get built in its current form now, but perhaps even more compromised after the numbers come out. The province and all the mayoral candidates (not including me ) seem committed to the idea something MUST be built for the sake of building something, but it seems in the end it will be something everyone regrets, expensive to maintain, and expensive to fix later (such as adding in missing stations)

How could the project possibly be more compromised? Building it without rails? (Council did actually consider doing that to the Sheppard Line in the 90s)

 

[Kyle Campbell]

KC’s post sounds like a voice-of-reason compromise position, but that position is also completely politically untenable. Realistically, saying no the the subway right now is essentially equivalent to an outright cancelation of the project, and there will be a huge political price to pay for that. You’re not ever going to see anyone running for mayor running on a platform of delaying the SSE.

Also, the SRT is falling apart, and something needs to be done to fix that. Delaying the SRT replacement is not an option.

I realize the politics, which is why I keep saying they will build the SSE as planned no matter the cost, because they've left no other option at this point. It's a snowball rolling down a mountain at this point. If it's unstoppable, they should at least throw in the two other stations so it's at least useful. Otherwise they will spend more billions and cause major disruptions after the fact adding them back in once the residents bypassed by the one stop cause enough of a political stink.

What I expect to happen is they'll try to cheapen the project even more, maybe removing the bus terminal entirely, providing only a single street level station entry not integrated with the mall (like the Canada line) and having all the buses stop on street while making all the riders go through the fare gates rather than in a fare paid zone.

Since the course of action is set it's way cheaper long term to just spend the money now to build it right than building a horribly compromised line like Vancouver did with the Canada line. In Vancouver TransLink has already admitted that it was a mistake to build the Canada line the way they did.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3793260/...-line-faces-tough-choice-as-demand-increases/

 

[Kyle Campbell]

To explain my position more, what they should have done a few years ago is realize that the choke point at Bloor Yonge is at crisis levels and since they were already dropping stations on the SSE just declare full stop, ordered some Mark iiis and maintenance to the existing RT, and get the DRL built since they don't have the funds for both. Removing the transfer at Kennedy won't help a Scarborough commuter get downtown if they can't get make the other transfer at Bloor Yonge due to overcrowding. The other option would have been to ply the upper level governments for more money for both projects, and have metrolinx delay things like the Finch LRT which can still be put off a bit to free up more funds. Right now it seems we're trying to do every project simultaneously without the resources to do them, and not actually accomplishing anything.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The other option would have been to ply the upper level governments for more money for both projects, and have metrolinx delay things like the Finch LRT which can still be put off a bit to free up more funds. Right now it seems we're trying to do every project simultaneously without the resources to do them, and not actually accomplishing anything.

Can you imagine the optics of delaying Finch LRT (which could be a potential death knell) serving a part of the city that is probably even more transit deprived just to pump money into this project, which is becoming a little gilded as is?

AoD

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Can you imagine the optics of delaying Finch LRT (which could be a potential death knell) serving a part of the city that is probably even more transit deprived just to pump money into this project, which is becoming a little gilded as is?

AoD

That's what happens when you decide to plan via crisis and political pandering, it's project by whoever screams the loudest or when it finally becomes a death trap. I doubt there's an appetite for it, but you could also do something like Seattle and LA did and actual ask the populace to support a sales tax increase just to fund an actual transit vision.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That's what happens when you decide to plan via crisis and political pandering, it's project by whoever screams the loudest or when it finally becomes a death trap. I doubt there's an appetite for it, but you could also do something like Seattle and LA did and actual ask the populace to support a sales tax increase just to fund an actual transit vision.

You don't even need that (esp. given sales tax isn't on the city's menu of revenue tools) - you can sidestep the issue simply by a policy that requires a certain proportion of project cost be raised though ward specific levies from communities directly benefiting from it for all transit projects.

In other words, transit expansion projects will have potentially four funding sources
1. Federal government; 2. Provincial government; 3. City government and 4. Ward(s) co-sponsors.

AoD

 

[syn]

I'm obviously on the right side of history and they just don't want to admit it. All debating with people like them has done has cost us yet another 5 years of nothing getting built. Remember it was 2013 when Council approved the SSE extension up McCowan. 5 years in which the price ballooned to $5 billion up from $3. Yay! Let's debate another five years and see where that gets us.

Actually, subway supporters are on the wrong side of history. There was a plan approved and paid for in 2010. Now we have something much, much worse proposed for more money.

 

[syn]

I realize the politics, which is why I keep saying they will build the SSE as planned no matter the cost, because they've left no other option at this point. It's a snowball rolling down a mountain at this point. If it's unstoppable, they should at least throw in the two other stations so it's at least useful. Otherwise they will spend more billions and cause major disruptions after the fact adding them back in once the residents bypassed by the one stop cause enough of a political stink.

What I expect to happen is they'll try to cheapen the project even more, maybe removing the bus terminal entirely, providing only a single street level station entry not integrated with the mall (like the Canada line) and having all the buses stop on street while making all the riders go through the fare gates rather than in a fare paid zone.

Since the course of action is set it's way cheaper long term to just spend the money now to build it right than building a horribly compromised line like Vancouver did with the Canada line. In Vancouver TransLink has already admitted that it was a mistake to build the Canada line the way they did.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3793260/...-line-faces-tough-choice-as-demand-increases/

Removing the absurd bus terminal would cripple this project even further though.

With only one 6+ km stop, they need that terminal to handle all the additional bus traffic.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The actual idea of the extension isn't a bad idea at all. It's just given all the various crisis within the TTC, it doesn't seem like it should be at the forefront. The DRL was way more important then any of the projects that have been built in the past decade, and the SSE seems to be another thing cutting in line. There's already rapid transit to the STC, it's just not as desirable. Should there be a subway, yes, with actual stops between the STC and Kennedy. But, do we have to build a 6km "express" subway right now, costs-be-damned, no.

KC’s post is a voice-of-reason compromise position. Unlike pretty much everyone on this thread, certainly including me, he’s willing to acknowledge the messy political reality and attempt to listen to both sides. I don’t actually agree with his analysis of SSE itself, but even I have to admit there’s no data-driven argument to say it should never be built. I also have to realize that the amalgamated City is here to stay, like it or not, so we are forced to find a way beyond the polarized and ultimately sterile back and forth between the two camps. So, thanks KC. Also, please be Mayor.

KC’s post sounds like a voice-of-reason compromise position, but that position is also completely politically untenable. Realistically, saying no the the subway right now is essentially equivalent to an outright cancelation of the project, and there will be a huge political price to pay for that. You’re not ever going to see anyone running for mayor running on a platform of delaying the SSE.

Also, the SRT is falling apart, and something needs to be done to fix that. Delaying the SRT replacement is not an option.

I realize the politics, which is why I keep saying they will build the SSE as planned no matter the cost, because they've left no other option at this point. It's a snowball rolling down a mountain at this point. If it's unstoppable, they should at least throw in the two other stations so it's at least useful. Otherwise they will spend more billions and cause major disruptions after the fact adding them back in once the residents bypassed by the one stop cause enough of a political stink.

So here we've demonstrated the difficulty of compromise. With the SSE, we either build it or we don't. There is no "in-between" option, and either way a significant portion of the population will be infuriated. There will be no further compromise with the SSE. The one-stop configuration is a major compromise it in and of itself.

As for the addition of two stations, unless Toronto gets a blank cheque from somewhere, that is also politically untenable. We'll pay the price for it later.

This is what happens when we build transit based on emotion and rhetoric, rather than doing what is best for the people.

What I expect to happen is they'll try to cheapen the project even more, maybe removing the bus terminal entirely, providing only a single street level station entry not integrated with the mall (like the Canada line) and having all the buses stop on street while making all the riders go through the fare gates rather than in a fare paid zone.

This is completely not possible, given the high volume of bus traffic at the station. An compromise position would be to build the bus terminal at-grade. But the underground terminal only costs $100 Million, so it's not as if this will significantly change the overall price of the project.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm obviously on the right side of history and they just don't want to admit it. All debating with people like them has done has cost us yet another 5 years of nothing getting built. Remember it was 2013 when Council approved the SSE extension up McCowan. 5 years in which the price ballooned to $5 billion up from $3. Yay! Let's debate another five years and see where that gets us.

The fact that this project is not yet under construction, despite it being approved five years ago and having broad political support is infuriating. We move too slow in this city.

 

[salsa]

And I never said they were responsible directly. But why propagate the same risk of pedestrian-surface rail collision and fatality elsewhere in the city when it could have been avoided all together. Victoria Park and Eglinton folks: https://www.mykawartha.com/news-sto...ar-victoria-park-eglinton-in-last-few-months/

It's a design flaw not to grade-separate the stop at this intersection to reduce the risk of pedestrians darting across traffic to catch an oncoming LRT. But yeah, continue to dismiss my opinions as if they don't have any merit.

With all due respect, three people getting killed in the same intersection suggests that the real design flaw is in the roadway itself. You can elevate the LRT all you want, but when those passengers still have to walk on the same street to get to the station, that alone does not really fix the problem.

https://seanmarshall.ca/2017/11/23/torontos-zero-vision-and-the-folly-of-seniors-safety-zones/