Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

Dunno if it's just me, but I always get the feeling LRT proponents don't actually want the best for Scarborough and only want to cheap out on Scarborough. I guess it doesn't help that the LRT line just happens to cost less than the SSE.

I feel the same way. The only discussion is around how much can be saved. And theoretical other lines to be built. No concrete promises. Oddly, Tory and Keesmat's pushing of Eglinton East is actually more promotion of an LRT that could be delivered than anything offered by the LRT faction of this debate.

 

[salsa]

Note, I deliberately excluded central Toronto in my illustrations because its arguable that other factors contributed to its growth beyond having a underground rapid transit line there.

Interesting that you say that, after singing a slightly different tune just the other day.

We only need look to elsewhere along the path of the Bloor-Danforth (namely surrounding Victoria Park, High Park and Islington Stns) to know that subways trigger mass residential development. On scales yet to be seen as achievable with surface at-grade rail. I just see an endless string of two-storey shops lining the 501 Queen corridor from Long Branch all the way to Neville Park, with only the occasional high rise besides the area near Park Lawn - which itself used to be a row of seedy two-storey motels.

 

[OneCity]

Your response to that is to say that MCC having achieved density without a subway is in trouble because it has grown up too much to be sustainable without a subway?

They have a completely different Municipal government structure has allowed them focus the fine details in creating their "downtown" and attracting investment. That in addition to the mounds of money exists in the City due to its high level of existing infrastructure surrounding the City

Under no circumstances would residents of Mississauga accept a rapid transit line of any infrastructure type with a transfer one stop before MCC? Thankfully there will be no outside opposition who feel entitled enough to try to force such nonsense. The subway is certainly not the issue in density but the finer details do matter

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I know, right. All westbound trains terminate at Kipling after all. Why turn back the trains one stop short of the eastern terminus? SCC could be as busy if not more so than Kennedy Stn if the ~30,000 daily alightings at Scarborough Centre today are anything to measure what the average daily usage will be post-extension.

Because it isn't just one stop. It is 6km of tunnel. That affects headways significantly.

You need to have many more trains operating to maintain the same level of frequency across the Bloor-Danforth line. More trains significantly increases the operating costs of running service. Besides procurement costs, each train has ongoing labour costs (drivers) and maintenance costs.

This is a substantial cost to the TTC, especially considering that the TTC is so dependent on the fare box to maintain it's operating budget. If trains are not short-turned at Kennedy, it could translate to fares increasing.

(Insert mandatory reminder that operating costs of the Scarborough LRT were to be fully absorbed by the Province.)

 

[TOareaFan]

They have a completely different Municipal government structure has allowed them focus the fine details in creating their "downtown" and attracting investment. That in addition to the mounds of money exists in the City due to its high level of existing infrastructure surrounding the City

mounds of money? The city is facing a huge cash crunch, and that cash crunch is one of the main reasons they want out of Peel so that they don't have to pay their share of building infrastructure in Brampton and Caledon the way those municipalities contributed during Mississauga's growth.

Under no circumstances would residents of Mississauga accept a rapid transit line of any infrastructure type with a transfer one stop before MCC?

Actually they are......they are pushing hard for their regional link...their link to the core of the region being eventual ReR on the Milton GO Line....and guess what, that will be a couple of stops short of city centre....and people will transfer to the LRT.

The subway is certainly not the issue in density but the finer details do matter

Glad we settled that, because I only got into this discussion to dispute the notion put forward by a couple of people that you can't build density without a subway.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Glad we settled that, because I only got into this discussion to dispute the notion put forward by a couple of people that you can't build density without a subway.

South Etobicoke should have firmly put that argument to rest on it's own.

 

[OneCity]

mounds of money? The city is facing a huge cash crunch, and that cash crunch is one of the main reasons they want out of Peel so that they don't have to pay their share of building infrastructure in Brampton and Caledon the way those municipalities contributed during Mississauga's growth.



Actually they are......they are pushing hard for their regional link...their link to the core of the region being eventual ReR on the Milton GO Line....and guess what, that will be a couple of stops short of city centre....and people will transfer to the LRT.



Glad we settled that, because I only got into this discussion to dispute the notion put forward by a couple of people that you can't build density without a subway.

1. Mounds of private investment money.
2. You got your answer you are looking for But you comparison is not suitable in Government and surrounding infrastructure

 

[TOareaFan]

South Etobicoke should have firmly put that argument to rest on it's own.

another very good example

 

[OneCity]

another very good example

Remember Scarborough wasn't even going to be a subway under Ford. He just got rid of the transfer. Again fine details over technology first but the subway is also proven to be a great selling feature in this City . The opposition refused and chose to push a transfer LRT to the death of the debate so subway it is.

 

[TOareaFan]

1. Mounds of private investment money.

Wow, we have just gone in a very bizarre circle.....it is stated that an area can't attract investment without a subway....I show MCC as a refuting example.....and that is refuted because they have mounds of private investment? I am getting dizzy!

2. You got your answer you are looking for But you comparison is not suitable in Government and surrounding infrastructure

My example does not fit the answer you wanted so you dismiss it....you should go into the business of doing transit planning studies

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Remember Scarborough wasn't even going to be a subway under Ford. He just got rid of the transfer. Again details over technology. But the opposition wanted to push a transfer to the death of the debate

No, the opposition wanted to remove Ford from the transit profile. It had nothing to do with the transfer.

You also forget that Ford's plan meant cutting SELRT and FWLRT from the plan. The "opposition" (whatever that is) voted to return to the old plan that brought back the SELRT and FWLRT, rightfully. Then Stintz came up with the subway and the rest is history.

 

[OneCity]

No, the opposition wanted to remove Ford from the transit profile. It had nothing to do with the transfer.

You also forget that Ford's plan meant cutting SELRT and FWLRT from the plan. The "opposition" (whatever that is) voted to return to the old plan that brought back the SELRT and FWLRT, rightfully. Then Stintz came up with the subway and the rest is history.

I didn't forget that just wasn't part of the SCC connection I was discussing. He was tapping into the heavy support to remove transfers on Sheppard and the RT as a priority in Scarborough's transit growth. Stintz had her own ambition, but again support for the subway is there she unwillingly gave the subway torch to Tory and DoFo

My point was it didn't have to be a subway here.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I didn't forget that just wasn't part of the SCC connection I was discussing. He was tapping into the heavy support to remove transfers on Sheppard and the RT as a priority in Scarborough's transit growth. Stintz had her own ambition, but again support for the subway is there

My point was it didn't have to be a subway here.

Yes, it didn't have to be. But then Karen Stintz got mayoral ambitions and here we are paying the price of it.

 

[OneCity]

Yes, it didn't have to be. But then Karen Stintz got mayoral ambitions and here we are paying the price of it.

Well her subway wasn't even that bad aside the opposition would have never supported. It's Tory's ST and one stop combo that makes the subway one of kind. Ive always said if you can put LRT on the RT corridor we could have put subway. But that ship has likely sailed for both

 

[BurlOak]

The way I understand the LRT vs. Subways debate is that the current SRT, with its transfer, forms a psychological barrier between Scarborough and the rest of the city. The fact that transit city proposed a transfer from subway to street running LRT on every transit line that seemed to approach Scarborough (e.g. Sheppard subway to LRT, Kennedy to SRT, underground Eglinton transfer to SMLRT at Kennedy) probably didn't help the sense of segregated transit and geographic isolation. If the constraint is a continuous, grade separated line, then the Bloor-Danforth extension is the only logical outcome. I've grown to appreciate Burloaks position more on this.

I saw my name, but that's not exactly my position. If the choice is transfer LRT or SSE, maybe I choose the B-D extension.

Or you know, interlining the LRT with the Crosstown. Astounding how such an easy solution to the problem is right there, proposed at one point, and not even on the radar.

Yes, this is more like it.

My main position is to ask for a continuous, grade-separated solution. There are much better solutions out there than transfer LRT or SSE.