Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

Yes, it didn't have to be. But then Karen Stintz got mayoral ambitions and here we are paying the price of it.

You are underestimating the contribution of Mitzi Hunter and the Provincial Liberals who were willing to buy that Scarborough by-election at any cost.

 

[syn]

Sorry if this sounds crass, but that's just rubbish. For every Warden or Kennedy, both areas slated for redevelopment mind you, there's:

High Park:

Victoria Park:

Islington:

Downsview:

North York Centre:

None of these developments would have occurred in the absence of subways.

You've just proven my point as most of those examples aren't dense and urban with a few exceptions. North York Centre is only starting to see an influx of significant development 30 years after it opened.

High Park was already part of a relatively dense, walkable part of the city.

Victoria Park, Downsview and Islignton are very poor examples of subway's spurring development.

 

[syn]

The investment in the City centre is a result of surrounding investments and a focal plan to attract. The subway is theoretical based on what the Province is doing in lesser areas of the 905 so yes we can extract that for now but I dont discount at all.

The quality of public investment is a major factor in spurring growth. North York is a much more sound comparable to Scarborough in population, size and vicinity to Downtown then Mississauga as its a Toronto suburb and placing a transfer before NYCC would have been sheer stupidity

Yes. Why is that?

Perhaps it's because NYCC is just about 1km DIRECTLY NORTH of Yonge and Sheppard, on Yonge?

I answered, maybe not what you are looking for? Let me clarify. Yes, density can be built wherever a City allows but its the quality varies depending upon the connectivity and quality of infrastructure surrounding . I dont care to see SCC impeded by a transfer one stop before as that does affect attractiveness for investors and commuters as this is a clear limitation.

Would a transfer one stop before NYCC make sense? Not to me and would have been poor long term planning if constructed that way.

Mississauga having a 40 minute transfer between Islington Station hasn't seemed to impede the growth of their city centre relative to the STC.

An LRT is quality infrastructure...a revamped RT would be quality too. We need to get past the idea that the only form of acceptable/quality transit is a Subway.

Every train should end at STC.

I guess every train should end at Sherway in the west?

They don't even have an RT. Perhaps they should get a connection first, before Scarborough gets anything at all?

 

[BurlOak]

Maybe it can dip south at East Harbour, providing two stations for that site of higher importance?

And that interlining idea is not bad, considering we could provide frequent service on King and share a King tunnel. Where would the line going to Don Mills go though?

With interlining, One line would go Malvern to downtown, with a branch at Liberty Village going a bit farther along King, and then down Fraser, Mowat, or Dufferin to Exhibition.
The other line goes down Dufferin, along King, and then branches south after East Harbour Centre Station. The Don River Line would stay in its own tunnel along Queen.

Dufferin-King-Scarborough Line,

• I would expect it would be elevated (some stretches at-grade) from Scarborough to East Harbour Centre Station.
• Move Woodbine, Leslie, and Carlaw stations south to Lakeshore.
  
• It would bridge over the Don River and then tunnel cut-and-cover through downtown. (Cut-and-cover is faster construction, cheaper, and more convenient in service not requiring minutes of time to descend to track level).
• I would prefer taking Front, Wellington, and back to Front @ Spadina for 3 reasons; 1) It appears less disruptive than King (less Path, no King Streetcar disruption), 2) It may be possible to go over the YUS tracks along Wellington, while you must go under the Stations along King, 3) It is easier to get back to elevated at Front/Spadina then along King (I remember showing that to go from underground to elevated takes up about 500m, which is unsightly along King and likely not possible).
• I would follow elevated along the north edge of the Rail Corridor with Bathurst, Strachan stations, and then Liberty Village on King.
• It would go elevated up Dufferin, although I haven't put much thought into this, and maybe you were planning tunneled?

Don River Line would be;

• At-grade/elevated north of Finch.
• Elevated from Finch to the Don Valley crossing.
• Cut-and-cover from the south bank of the Don Valley to the Lower Don River Crossing. I would move this Broadview Station a bit south (basically following the current Keesmaat route) to allow for an interchange with your East Harbour Centre Station.
• Bridge over the Don River (just south of Eastern Ave.).
• Cut-and-cover along somehow up to Queen and along Queen to Sunnyside.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

With interlining, One line would go Malvern to downtown, with a branch at Liberty Village going a bit farther along King, and then down Fraser, Mowat, or Dufferin to Exhibition.
The other line goes down Dufferin, along King, and then branches south after East Harbour Centre Station. The Don River Line would stay in its own tunnel along Queen.

Dufferin-King-Scarborough Line,

• I would expect it would be elevated (some stretches at-grade) from Scarborough to East Harbour Centre Station.
• Move Woodbine, Leslie, and Carlaw stations south to Lakeshore.
  
• It would bridge over the Don River and then tunnel cut-and-cover through downtown. (Cut-and-cover is faster construction, cheaper, and more convenient in service not requiring minutes of time to descend to track level).
• I would prefer taking Front, Wellington, and back to Front @ Spadina for 3 reasons; 1) It appears less disruptive than King (less Path, no King Streetcar disruption), 2) It may be possible to go over the YUS tracks along Wellington, while you must go under the Stations along King, 3) It is easier to get back to elevated at Front/Spadina then along King (I remember showing that to go from underground to elevated takes up about 500m, which is unsightly along King and likely not possible).
• I would follow elevated along the north edge of the Rail Corridor with Bathurst, Strachan stations, and then Liberty Village on King.
• It would go elevated up Dufferin, although I haven't put much thought into this, and maybe you were planning tunneled?

Don River Line would be;

• At-grade/elevated north of Finch.
• Elevated from Finch to the Don Valley crossing.
• Cut-and-cover from the south bank of the Don Valley to the Lower Don River Crossing. I would move this Broadview Station a bit south (basically following the current Keesmaat route) to allow for an interchange with your East Harbour Centre Station.
• Bridge over the Don River (just south of Eastern Ave.).
• Cut-and-cover along somehow up to Queen and along Queen to Sunnyside.

The map has been amended with these changes: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1u8nMLrhYu5Z0KFBPHiFWrhzPqKI

I added a new station at East Harbour Centre (Broadview and Lakeshore), making the Broadview and Eastern station (just named Eastern Station now) an important interchange between the Dufferin-King-Scarborough Line and the Don River Line.

I copied the Keesmaat Relief Line routing, fixed with the alignment changes from the new Carlaw routing. Though I still don't know how exactly City Planning intends to send the Relief Line across the Don River at Queen/Eastern.

Dufferin-King-Scarborough might probably be renamed Dufferin-Downtown-Scarborough Line now. And yes, I had originally intended Dufferin to be tunneled. I don't know SkyTrain could fit on Dufferin elevated, but if it is possible I would do that as I have argued for rapid transit on the Dufferin corridor in the past. The Dufferin segment is a leftover from the original map I made where the line was intended as subway. If we were using elevated SkyTrain technology and Dufferin elevated is impossible, I would do as others would and send it north along the rail corridor to Dundas West, Mt. Dennis and probably the airport.

I think the Lower Don Lands/Portlands will be adequately served with this scheme with the Cherry and Broadview Streetcars added to the network. It is just a short ride and transfer to rapid transit stations at Sumach and East Harbour.

 

[amnesiajune]

North York Centre is only starting to see an influx of significant development 30 years after it opened.

What?! North York Centre has been in it's current state (other than one condominium project, the Gibson Centre) since the late-90s. It started being built immediately after the subway station opened (granted, the tax situation was different before amalgamation which played a big role in all that development). The current "influx of significant development" (and even that's a stretch... most of the buildings there also date back to the 1990s) is up on Church Street and Cummer/Drewry.

 

[TOareaFan]

What?! North York Centre has been in it's current state (other than one condominium project, the Gibson Centre) since the late-90s. It started being built immediately after the subway station opened (granted, the tax situation was different before amalgamation which played a big role in all that development). The current "influx of significant development" (and even that's a stretch... most of the buildings there also date back to the 1990s) is up on Church Street and Cummer/Drewry.

but the subway already went through and past the area....didn't Finch open in the 70s? Surely there is a difference between planning a DT along a subway line and seeking a new station in between existing stations and seeking to boost an area 6km from the last subway station by building a 6km deep tunnel?

 

[JGHali]

The lion's share of the development between Finch and Sheppard dates from the late 90s at earliest. Many of the condos appeared in the early 2000s, with things like Empress Walk appearing in 2000. Now that was a while ago, but it's important to mention that North York Centre station opened way back in 1987. Now there were a few office buildings around and some older condos in the area, but for a long time the only things next to North York Civic Centre were the adjoining office buildings, Novotel, library, and pool. A block east or west of Yonge and you still have nothing but single-family detached homes.

 

[amnesiajune]

A block east or west of Yonge and you still have nothing but single-family detached homes.

That's still the case today, but that's got nothing to do with the subway - North York Centre was intentionally designed to contain development within a block or two of Yonge Street. The city fights any development proposal outside of there. Remember when they tried to name a townhouse street "OMB Folly"? That was less than two blocks west of Yonge.

 

[Cobra]

What i am hearing here is that people in Scarborough will not mind long waits for trains as long as there is no transfer at Kennedy when the train finally goes/comes.

Byford said that with ATC, they will run the line as they do the rest of the network. Short-turning wouldn't be necessary assuming Bloor-Danforth is ATC ready when the extension opens

 

[amnesiajune]

Byford said that with ATC, they will run the line as they do the rest of the network. Short-turning wouldn't be necessary assuming Bloor-Danforth is ATC ready when the extension opens

On top of that, even if every other Bloor-Danforth train short-turned at Kennedy during rush hour, STC would still have better service frequency (every 4' 42") than they currently have with the SRT (every 5' 00")

 

[Cobra]

Why would Skytrain be acceptable but not LRT for building the above situation? In either case, you're not using up that much land with the elevated guideway, it's just a different vehicle choice. Maybe ICTS would be slightly more slender and no catenary, but it wouldn't be an order of magnitude difference.

Why LRT? We already have skytrains here. We're just talking train upgrade vs new technology. LRT at the right place makes sense like Finch. Scarborough and Eglinton Crosstown should have been Skytrain and merged.

But the SRT alignment *is* better for STC. The weak points of the SRT alignment are that it uses up track space in the Stouffville sub and that it passes through low-rise industrial sites for the north/south part of its alignment, but once it gets to STC it has a good route since STC is an east/west rectangle and the SRT runs through the centre of it. The Bloor-Danforth extension has a single stop at the eastern edge of STC so it doesn't provide as good coverage of the site.

The current SRT uses land that could be redevelop, in a sense, it interferes with city planning vision for the areas. Elevated Skytrain in the middle of McCowan road with less expensive stops along the way would have successfully transformed the whole artery, not just the STC district, without taking away valuable land assuming you build the line in the middle of the road...another missed opportunity.

Also the current SRT location goes in the middle of nowhere within parcel of land that CANNOT be rezoned or redevelop. That's why Skytrain or 3 stop subway made sense, you bring the trains where there's actually people.

 

[44 North]

The current SRT uses land that could be redevelop, in a sense, it interferes with city planning vision for the areas. Elevated Skytrain in the middle of McCowan road with less expensive stops along the way would have successfully transformed the whole artery, not just the STC district, without taking away valuable land assuming you build the line in the middle of the road...another missed opportunity.

There's not a shortage of developable land in the area though, and I don't think the Line 3 alignment was considered a problem between now and the 70s/80s/90s/00s in that respect. At least I don't think I've seen that argument used in any official sense. Even looking at the conceptual illustration for the SSE, there'd be one parcel that genuinely couldn't be developed with Line 3 (NW corner of McCowan/Bushby). All other private developments in the precinct could move forward as conceptually envisioned. The other precincts would be unaffected.

 

[steveintoronto]

That's still the case today, but that's got nothing to do with the subway - North York Centre was intentionally designed to contain development within a block or two of Yonge Street. The city fights any development proposal outside of there. Remember when they tried to name a townhouse street "OMB Folly"? That was less than two blocks west of Yonge.

Which only underlines how absurd it was to build a full subway along Sheppard. It should have been LRT.

 

[amnesiajune]

Which only underlines how absurd it was to build a full subway along Sheppard.

North York Centre is nowhere near Sheppard and Leslie.....