Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Young Stats]

You are trying to spin this into into a deep polarizing POV. My suggestion has been pretty level and that to find the cheapest solution to remove the transfer I feel as though is completely unreasonable and unnecessary given the current network and what SCC is suppose to be in the future. As I said there are and were alternatives.

For the Opposition to come to the table every time with the "facts" and "data" the LRT is cheaper and the only other option and pretend the transfer isn't an issue after all that has gone on the last decade is useless rhetoric that wont help you, me or anyone.

Tory's subway plan is a complete head scratcher ill be the first to agree its a waste. But as an end user that doesn't make think the LRT with the "absurd" transfer locations is not a head scratcher of a design. Surely we can find the "facts" and "data" to better support a combination for both cost and integration. A much cheaper seamless LRT was offered and the "fact" is the opposition voted it down in order to tell Scarborough whats best.

If transfer LRT was the only option id kinda agree. But It's not and this is just Poltics rearing its ugly head on all sides.

I agree with the LRT option, however the issue is that it would require for the SRT line to be shut down for 4 years. The question would be what plan would you have implement during those 4 years. 4 years is a long time and that would create a lot of congestion in Kennedy Stn

 

[Cobra]

I agree with the LRT option, however the issue is that it would require for the SRT line to be shut down for 4 years. The question would be what plan would you have implement during those 4 years. 4 years is a long time and that would create a lot of congestion in Kennedy Stn

It's the least of downtown councillors worries

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It's the least of downtown councillors worries

Sure, you want to put that to the test when historically streetcar lines carrying more users were shut down to build Yonge and Bloor lines; a situation that will in all likelihood will be repeated for DRL?

AoD

 

[Cobra]

Sure, you want to put that to the test when historically streetcar lines carrying more users were shut down to build Yonge and Bloor lines; a situation that will in all likelihood will be repeated for DRL?

AoD

You and I know full well that there are plenty of alternatives to get around downtown, especially when the ridership back then was nowhere near what it is today. Scarborough would be screwed for 4 years and that's Byford himself saying it also adding that there would be no way the TTC could compensate the shutdown of the RT.

 

[epcjay]

Flexibility is a big thing.

I use to commute from 2 carlton all the way to Middlefield and Steeles. I would leave my office at 5:30pm, get on the train at college, change to line 2, change to line 3, get to my bus bay just in time for the 615 bus to Steeles. my bus ride was about 25 minutes, so I'd get home at around 6:40.

If I were to take line 1 from college all the way to finch station, I'd get to the 53F (at the time the B/E bus went into markham) bus bay @ 5:55 - 6pm. I'd get to Steeles and Middlefield at 6:55pm.

I tried this multiple times, even days when it called for large snow storms. My commute via line 2/line3 to stc was predictable assuming line 3 doesnt go to shiits but even then, the 131E was very useful. If it was a large snowstom, the 53F adds about 10-15 minutes to my commute.

Now if we go with the LRT, I am still doing the same thing. Maybe one less flight of stairs. Why would I want the LRT if my travel habits and time don't improve? There's no real time savings here. I am still waiting for another train, stopping the same stops as before, getting on the same bus as before. Those on bus routes 21, 129, 130 and 131 virtually have no changes to their commute.

However with the subway, I've shaved off 6-7 minutes from not having to transfer and wait for another train AND perhaps another 8 minutes since the subway and no longer has to stop at the other stops and its direct to STC.

Call my selfish, but's thats why i support the subway

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You and I know full well that there are plenty of alternatives to get around downtown, especially when the ridership back then was nowhere near what it is today. Scarborough would be screwed for 4 years and that's Byford himself saying it also adding that there would be no way the TTC could compensate the shutdown of the RT.

Err, no - Yonge Streetcar was 12.5K pphpd at peak (p. 67 of Levy's Rapid Transit in Toronto) - and it was shut down for four and half years. Do you honestly think that a properly planned and executed subway conversion will that long?

AoD

 

[Cobra]

Err, no - Yonge Streetcar was 12.5K pphpd at peak (p. 67 of Levy's Rapid Transit in Toronto) - and it was shut down for four and half years. Do you honestly think that a properly planned and executed subway conversion will that long?

AoD

And the SRT move over 40k, over triple the ridership meaning a worse nightmarish puzzle for the TTC than back then, espacially taking into account that there's way more cars today using the same streets than in the 50s. So what's your point?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And the SRT move over 40k, over triple the ridership meaning a worse nightmarish puzzle for the TTC than back then, espacially taking into account that there's way more cars today using the same streets than in the 50s. So what's your point?

40K pphpd? Are you sure you got your numbers right? That's busier than the current Line 1. It's 40K/day - 510 Spadina kind of ridership.

Look, I didn't claim it was painless, but can it be more painful than ripping up an entire street (because it is all cut and cover) and a good chunk of the neigbhourhood northward in the core area of the city which at the time is still denser than the neighbourhoods in question we're talking about now? Do you *really* want to go down this road of who "suffered" more to get transit?

AoD

 

[Cobra]

40K pphpd? Are you sure you got your numbers right?

AoD

No not pphpd, my bad, I missed that.

Still, the downtown core had more alternatives with the streetcar network to move around the core than Scarborough does today with the current bus fleet that would clearly be insufficient and the TTC did say even with buying extra buses and hiring more drivers, there's no way they could compensate for the SRT. I don't see where what point you're trying to make..."so Scarborough should take the pain just as riders on the Bloor-Danforth Streetcars had to endure decades ago?" That's not the point. If we know we can do better, can we just do better?

Let's not forget why we're here to begin with...Right, the shameful neglect of the SRT by past city councils who didn't care about that part of the city. Now, we're expecting people to just "shut up, get with the program and take it" when the city and the TTC are the one's responsible for this situation. No, I don't agree with a 1 stop subway, at all...however, I understand why they don't want the LRT nor a transfer nor the SRT corridor. I'm fed up of reading people pointing fingers at people when it's bureaucrats that dropped the ball from the get go and still are.

And you know what? Scarborough did accept LRT in the SRT corridor when it was to be merged with Eglinton. They even accepted not having the SRT for 4 years but you had a bunch of Toronto councillors acting like they knew best that decided to kill that MOU to go back to everything that part of the city has been complaining for decades without addressing ANY of those complaints. I don't buy that it's an issue with "technology", it's an issue of not being connected to the main system and being forced to transfer at Kennedy. I understand why they aren't willing to "shut up and take it" just to get more of the same but they would if the project was improved and their complains were addressed.

Yes, now we're stuck with a 1 stop subway, but the TTC and some councillors (present and past) needs to take a hard look at themselves and admit that they bear a huge part of responsibility to what's happening today. Should never had went this far. What a joke, what a farce and a black eye for this city.

Can we stop acting like we know it all and look at the Blue line file for the Montreal Metro going to Anjou? They don't "half ass" the construction of their network. St-Michel IS NOT a destination. Forcing a transfer there with an LRT was studied and quickly rejected. They said it made ZERO sense to do that. Oh, and they don't view Anjou as a "suburb", they view Anjou as a Montreal borough. The problem here is people and politicians calling the rest of the city "suburbs" because they are outside of old city of Toronto limits which feeds into this ridiculous "us vs them". People need to grow up and move on. The subway is happening, let's not repeat the same mistakes in the future.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

No not pphpd, my bad, I missed that.

Still, the downtown core had more alternatives with the streetcar network to move around the core than Scarborough does today with the current bus fleet that would clearly be insufficient and the TTC did say even with buying extra buses and hiring more drivers, there's no way they could compensate for the SRT. I don't see where what point you're trying to make..."so Scarborough should take the pain just as riders on the Bloor-Danforth Streetcars had to endure decades ago?" That's not the point. If we know we can do better, can we just do better?

Is a one stop subway extension better? You tell me that. Is that what the extension to Anjou (which has already doubled in cost, BTW) looks like? As mentioned, the pro-subway crowd has a majority - but if a one stop extension is something that they are happy to squeeze out of that 3B when they could have gotten more simply by being more flexible in alignment choices, you know what, all the power to them.

AoD

 

[Voltz]

I agree with the LRT option, however the issue is that it would require for the SRT line to be shut down for 4 years. The question would be what plan would you have implement during those 4 years. 4 years is a long time and that would create a lot of congestion in Kennedy Stn

No it would not have, the LRT plan included a temporary expansion of the bus terminal on the east side of the GO tracks. And it would have been easy to include things like temporary bus lanes at intersections along the route to reduce delays. As well the shutdown would not have been 4 years.

 

[OneCity]

Is a one stop subway extension better? You tell me that. Is that what the extension to Anjou (which has already doubled in cost, BTW) looks like? As mentioned, the pro-subway crowd has a majority - but if a one stop extension is something that they are happy to squeeze out of that 3B when they could have gotten more simply by being more flexible in alignment choices, you know what, all the power to them.

AoD

Lets be realistic Tory has pissed off a good chunk of the pro subway crowd right now as well as the opposing transfer LRT crowd. His support on this line comes from the fact there is overwhelming subway support (not really this plan) and those just wanting to see action. He's done a bit of damage to himself in Scarborough since last election especially if he cant show a clear funding for the Eglinton East line. Both Smarttrack and the subway are stripped down to almost just tracks and tunnels.

By no means is this debate over. I expect 30% design and the election to be mayhem and Im sure the media will adding resources to flame the divide between both sides of Tory's plan as this is sure to be a huge election issue.

 

[Voltz]

One thing that really gets me now is Tory yesterday playing ignorant about why the Subway was approved in 2013, saying things like he assumed council had all the facts about both LRT and subways and made a decision based on the facts etc, when he of all people knew full well that it was because Ford went and lied to everyone about subways and Stintz and Glen wanted to use it for their election campaigns.

 

[Palma]

Will be far more of a destination than the majority of the current stops on the BDL line and far more Central as far as Scarborough is concerned. Its arguably the most important area in Scarborough and mainly outsiders are advocating to put a transfer before it? Complete nonsense. Without debating the current Tory plan as its also I bi product of stubbornness from the opposition to understand the importance of this and there are/were other options offered to correct this mistake.

sad commentary that STC ( a shopping mall) is the most important area in scarborough. Must be taking after Square One

 

[Cobra]

Is a one stop subway extension better?

No, I hate that plan.

Is that what the extension to Anjou (which has already doubled in cost, BTW) looks like

No, it has more stations but there was always a consensus to have it built. The 3 stop subway was attacked from the get go. Transit will always be more expensive to build overtime, the government of Quebec understands that now and that's why they put funding aside in the latest provincial budget to fund it finally. If you're going to react that way at costs escalation, I hope you're ready for the Relief Line... $20B would be a best case scenario because it will most likely go up. Way up

As mentioned, the pro-subway crowd has a majority - but if a one stop extension is something that they are happy to squeeze out of that 3B when they could have gotten more simply by being more flexible in alignment choices, you know what, all the power to them.

Not sure where you're seeing people being happy about a 1 stop subway (except clowns at city hall) but the LRT plan wasn't better either.

The "pro-LRT crowd" are incapable of admitting that merging the SRT to Eglinton was the best PLAN B available. The best plan A was always rebuilding Kennedy to have the SRT reduce consirably the transfer at Kennedy and upgrade the SRT. Later, that SRT could have been expended west to be the Crosstown + north eastern extension to Malvern via Centennial college and STC...but the LRT boss Miller decided to half ass Toronto transit by going LRT across the board.

You want to get angry at "pro-subway crowd"? Where's that anger when you're being reminded that when the province says: "Hey Toronto! I have $8.3B to spend on transit (initially over $12B), what do you want?" The LRT guru Miller should have took the cheque and ran with it and

• buy Mk.III trains and refurbish the SRT and rebuild Kennedy
• Start the Relief line Phase I to Pape

But hey... didn't Giambrone "LRT-Junior" said that he'd start thinking about it in 2018?