Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

sad commentary that STC ( a shopping mall) is the most important area in scarborough. Must be taking after Square One

It really not just a shopping mall as its transitioning to be an "Urban Centre" as planned. Even with the crappy RT and decades of transit debate hindering current investment it is already built up far greater than most of the fruit stand stops residing in the current network.

 

[kEiThZ]

Oh, and they don't view Anjou as a "suburb", they view Anjou as a Montreal borough. The problem here is people and politicians calling the rest of the city "suburbs" because they are outside of old city of Toronto limits which feeds into this ridiculous "us vs them".

Slightly OT. But this is an excellent point. Despite amalgamation people simply don't view the whole city as an entity.

Was having a discussion with someone the other day. He claimed that 2 bedroom condos all over the city were going for $750k and that this was a travesty. I thought that was nonsense. Of course, he's lives at Yonge/Sheppard and only thinks of housing along Yonge. The real travesty here is that he would never ever consider living at Scarborough Town Centre for $250k less. And people why wonder Scarborough residents get their backs up and think that the subway is what defines urbanity. The borough is literally invisible to a lot of Toronto residents.

How many people on this thread have been to Scarborough in the last 3 months? Show of hands.

And I'm sure a lot of that is precisely because of how we label parts of Toronto that are not in the core. We really should go back to calling these parts "boroughs" and not suburbs. I'm sure it would certainly help change the tenor of the debate.

 

[APTA-2048]

And I'm sure a lot of that is precisely because of how we label parts of Toronto that are not in the core. We really should go back to calling these parts "boroughs" and not suburbs. I'm sure it would certainly help change the tenor of the debate

That won't accomplish anything. There is a marked difference between the "downtown" and "suburbs". Until both sides recognize they really do have different needs, nothing will get better.

 

[LNahid2000]

Was having a discussion with someone the other day. He claimed that 2 bedroom condos all over the city were going for $750k and that this was a travesty. I thought that was nonsense. Of course, he's lives at Yonge/Sheppard and only thinks of housing along Yonge. The real travesty here is that he would never ever consider living at Scarborough Town Centre for $250k less. And people why wonder Scarborough residents get their backs up and think that the subway is what defines urbanity. The borough is literally invisible to a lot of Toronto residents.

This has nothing to do with the subway, for me at least. I would never ever consider living at Scarborough Town Centre because it's not a walkable neighbourhood. Just as I wouldn't consider living near Kipling, Wilson, or Kennedy stations because they're also not walkable. But I would live along Yonge because most of Yonge is walkable and pedestrian friendly. Scarborough Centre sure won't be with the parking lots and hundreds of buses going to the station everyday.

 

[Cobra]

That won't accomplish anything. There is a marked difference between the "downtown" and "suburbs". Until both sides recognize they really do have different needs, nothing will get better.

Again this isn't downtown vs suburbs. Scarborough is ALSO Toronto and Toronto has a responsibility to offer appropriate transit to its residents who ALSO happens to be paying the same taxes.

Seriously, this downtown vs Suburbs thing is a Toronto disease that mostly Torontonians living in the core suffers from

 

[APTA-2048]

Again this isn't downtown vs suburbs. Scarborough is ALSO Toronto and Toronto has a responsibility to offer appropriate transit to its residents who ALSO happens to be paying the same taxes.

Of course Scarborough is part of Toronto. But the suburban parts of Toronto have different needs and wants from the urban parts. There's nothing wrong with that.

Seriously, this downtown vs Suburbs thing is a Toronto disease that mostly Torontonians living in the core suffers from

Way to perpetuate it, there.

 

[crs1026]

Again this isn't downtown vs suburbs. Scarborough is ALSO Toronto and Toronto has a responsibility to offer appropriate transit to its residents who ALSO happens to be paying the same taxes.
Seriously, this downtown vs Suburbs thing is a Toronto disease that mostly Torontonians living in the core suffers from

It should not be an "us versus them" thing, agreed. But there are two different built forms and this drives two different lifestyles and two different sides to a dialog.

I find people have clear views as to which they prefer - few are willng to go with either.

Etobicoke has a taste of the "downtown" form in places. North York has a little of it. Scarborough has none (that's not meant to sound like a judgement, it's my assessment of densities and amenities and neighbourhoods). So yeah there is little meeting of the twains. People who eschew Scarborough probably also eschew much of North York and Etobicoke, it's not aimed at Scarborough alone.

Equally, few in the burbs feel comfortable in the downtown lifestyle. So don't be blaming downtowners, it's a two way problem.

- Paul

 

[OneCity]

That won't accomplish anything. There is a marked difference between the "downtown" and "suburbs". Until both sides recognize they really do have different needs, nothing will get better.

Yes but its how the views differ from each side when considering how we should sew these areas together that is and has been the cause of the problem. North York is the best comparable in area, lifestyle and population. Yet the only major difference is the quality of transit. Most of Scarborough just wants its core to feel more connected to "Toronto" similar to how North York is.

Living part of my life in a few 905 cities, I have a hard time calling Scarborough a typical suburb in terms of size, layout, infrastructure, types of residential dwelling and proximity to the Core. To me a very large portion is on the verge of becoming a hybrid urban/suburban borough that will only be truly obvious if we can ever get this transit infrastructure built.

 

[steveintoronto]

Most of Scarborough just wants its core to feel more connected to "Toronto" as North York is.

Be very careful what you wish for. Sheppard Subway, the Sequel. Coming to a drive-in near you.

 

[LNahid2000]

Living part of my life in a few 905 cities, I have a hard time calling Scarborough a typical suburb in terms of size, layout, infrastructure, types of residential dwelling and proximity to the Core. To me a large portion is on the verge of becoming a hybrid urban/suburban Borough that will only be truly obvious if we can ever get this transit infrastructure built.

Where are the urban, walkable areas in Scarborough?

 

[44 North]

The cost of that would be pretty significant. Kennedy station would need to be rebuilt since the turn is too sharp for newer ICTS vehicles. The tunnel at Ellesmere would also need to be rebuilt, and all the stations (except Scarborough Centre and Kennedy) would need to be significantly renovated for wheelchair accessibility.

The other problem is that any orphaned technology increases costs. It would be a lot cheaper to operate and maintain the same fleet of LRT vehicles that would be in use throughout the GTHA - easier to get parts, easier to train staff, etc.

Obviously less significant than the two other proposals. And the technology wouldn't have to be "orphan" or "ICTS". Not sure why you're pretending to be a Scarboro Justice Warrior when you don't know the area or the past plans.

I sent him an e-mail as well.

The first thing I said was that returning to the transfer LRT would show insensitivity to the Scarborough desire for a transfer free ride, and shows inflexibility since he would be going back to the same failed plan. It would just make the anti-subway side look foolish.

Then I told him the keys to the motion should be as follows:

• Acknowledge that Metrolinx withheld a key report from Council in 2012, and that greatly influenced the debate - Council strongly condemns Metrolinx withholding key information from Council. [council would like to be able to shed the blame for the current situation to someone else, instead of admitting that they were wrong].
• Acknowledge the validity of above report finding a connected SRT with ECLRT is the best.
• Acknowledge that any transit solution must connect Scarborough (STC) to Yonge without transfer. [these 2 are key to show respect for Scarborough].
• Due to the information that was withheld, ask Council to explore if a more appropriate and effective means of Connecting Scarborough to Yonge without transfer was overlooked. [this shows that you are not just re-opening the same old debate].

How would you feel if Line 3's southern terminus remained located where it is, but the Sheppard corridor was the one that brought a transfer-free service between SCC and Yonge (either as LRT or some kind of Line 4 extn)? Or should both corridors be transfer-free to Yonge?

 

[syn]

Will be far more of a destination than the majority of the current stops on the BDL line and far more Central as far as Scarborough is concerned. Its arguably the most important area in Scarborough and mainly outsiders are advocating to put a transfer before it? Complete nonsense. Without debating the current Tory plan as its also I bi product of stubbornness from the opposition to understand the importance of this and there are/were other options offered to correct this mistake.

Really??

Even after eliminating 4 current RT stops for one giant 6KM (!!?!?!??!) extension, ridership isn't going to be anywhere near the busiest stations in the system.

Cut out 6KMs worth of stops between any other two stations and I'm sure their ridership numbers would skyrocket too.

If we eliminated Islington, Royal York, Old Mill and Jane and went straight from Kipling to Runnymede, what kind of numbers would Runnymede be getting? 60,000 to 70,000 a day?

The more 'rationales' provided for this extension, the more ridiculous it becomes.

 

[OneCity]

Be very careful what you wish for. Sheppard Subway, the Sequel. Coming to a drive-in near you.

Makes sense given the fact they have no intention on converting the stubway to LRT. Ill fully support that line to complete the loop.

To me Tory's plan would make sense if there was no Smarttrack and Lawrence stop was added in combination with Eglinton East. That would basically be a great start and the LRT amd subway just needs to be finished

 

[salsa]

Makes sense given he fact they have no intention on converting the stubway to LRT.

No it doesn't. It never even made sense to build it in the first place. But sure, keep telling yourself that.

 

[crs1026]

Will STC be a destination - or just a transfer hub?

i guess that depends on how it is developed.

It will be interesting to see if the Scarborough Councillors can grasp the kind of urban development that would make it a great destination. As opposed to a great shopping mall. The rest of the Council will defer to them so it's for Scarborough to win or lose.

- Paul