Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[rbt]

what are the city land transfer taxes used for now?

Nearly the entirety in Toronto goes directly to debt from capital projects already completed. That, in turn, frees up borrowing space to take on new debt for new projects.

So, in short, you'll need a lot more than the current Land Transfer Tax to increase infrastructure investment.

Since the LTT revenue is unreliable, lenders (and the city accountants) don't rely on it continuing; meaning you cannot borrow against it directly.

 

[OneCity]

When's the Provincial budget announced this year? Wondering if they announce before or after SSE vote?

 

[TOareaFan]

When's the Provincial budget announced this year? Wondering if they announce before or after SSE vote?

April 6 or 13 .

 

[M II A II R II K]

How much less would it cost if it were built like the stretch from Main to Kennedy Stations with mostly outdoor sections instead, and with more than one stop.

 

[epcjay]

Didn't the MPP for MTO back in 2013 say he can extend the subway using the exact alignment as the SRT for 1.4billion (2010)? Why can't we just stick with that plan and have the province foot the rest of the bill if it goes over since we are going with the subway anyways.

 

[OneCity]

Didn't the MPP for MTO back in 2013 say he can extend the subway using the exact alignment as the SRT for 1.4billion (2010)? Why can't we just stick with that plan and have the province foot the rest of the bill if it goes over since we are going with the subway anyways.

Like always that was a Politically skewed estimate back then but I personally prefer that corridor for the subway as in the end it has to be cheaper than the deep tunnel

A recent comment from Steve Munro regarding LRT cost escalation and the RT corridor Link

"As for the LRT cost, much depends on assumptions one makes about how much we build and when. For example, it was always assumed that the elevated structure now used by the SRT could be reused by an LRT line, but when the subway option on the same route was considered, it was claimed that the elevated needed major structural work and might have to be replaced. Amusing considering how badly overbuilt it was for the RT technology. Then there is the question of whether to rebuild the Ellesmere tunnel, or to replace it with a flyover connection that would bypass the lightly used Ellesmere Station. I have already mentioned problems at Lawrence East where there isn’t room for both a ST and an SRT/LRT/subway station at the same location. If the LRT were there, then the ST station would be redundant.

Finally there is the configuration of Kennedy Station where the design was changed to omit the SRT/LRT link to the Crosstown. Changing this would require reopening the Crosstown contract and ditching some of the design work that has been done on the current version of the station."

If we revert to LRT it could become a complete debacle Politically but also financially and further studies could drag us out even further given the expected rising costs and "unexpected" cost such as this. I agree the subway should be built on this corridor if savings can be determined and stops added. Or even at the same cost with stops added and Smarttrack cancelled. But it should certainly be subway not LRT on this corridor especially given the likely structure re-build in either case. Should have been subway on this corridor from the start.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Random thought:

Expropriating every property-owner on the east side of Danforth-McCowan between Eglinton and Ellesmere and building the subway at-grade would probably be cheaper than the 1-stop tunnel subway. We can have stations at Eglinton+Danforth, Lawrence, and Ellesmere.

Expropriating that much should be well below $1 billion, and we can probably build at-grade stations on the very cheap.

 

[dowlingm]

Random thought:

Expropriating every property-owner on the east side of Danforth-McCowan between Eglinton and Ellesmere and building the subway at-grade would probably be cheaper than the 1-stop tunnel subway. We can have stations at Eglinton+Danforth, Lawrence, and Ellesmere.

Expropriating that much should be well below $1 billion, and we can probably build at-grade stations on the very cheap.

Aside from the unlikelihood that an agency which has difficulty executing even minor expropriation would pull that off, how do you deal with road intersections, bearing in mind that due to liability issues nobody is building new road/third rail intersections?

The only at grade subway in Toronto is off street or in the middle of divided highways. This route is very much not that.

 

[crs1026]

The expropriation concept is mostly notable as a demonstration of just how ludricrously expensive the one stop deep tunnel is.

And as a demonstration of how a reasonable proposition is sliding into the zone of unjust enrichment. No other subway project in this city has been expropriation free.

I'd say - expropriate, build it cut and cover, then sell the air rights over the line.

- Paul

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Aside from the unlikelihood that an agency which has difficulty executing even minor expropriation would pull that off, how do you deal with road intersections, bearing in mind that due to liability issues nobody is building new road/third rail intersections?

The only at grade subway in Toronto is off street or in the middle of divided highways. This route is very much not that.

Trenched. Streets will be bridged over the trench.

The expropriation concept is mostly notable as a demonstration of just how ludricrously expensive the one stop deep tunnel is.

+1

 

[M II A II R II K]

What's so hard about a continuation of the setup that exists for the Main Street to Kennedy stretch where it's diagonal and mostly runs outside.

 

[salsa]

Under the federal budget, Toronto is still more than $7 billion short of what it requires to pay for urgently needed transit projects. The estimated $5 billion in funding includes $660 million that the feds have already pledged for the Scarborough subway, which leaves us with just $4.3 billion to spend on other projects. The projects the city submitted for funding were:

• SmartTrack ($3.7 billion)
• Relief line ($6.8 billion)
• Eglinton East LRT ($1.6 billion)
• Waterfront transit ($1.5 billion)

Together, the projects are estimated to cost at least $13.6 billion.

 

[steveintoronto]

Under the federal budget, Toronto is still more than $7 billion short of what it requires to pay for urgently needed transit projects. The estimated $5 billion in funding includes $660 million that the feds have already pledged for the Scarborough subway, which leaves us with just $4.3 billion to spend on other projects. The projects the city submitted for funding were:

• SmartTrack ($3.7 billion)
• Relief line ($6.8 billion)
• Eglinton East LRT ($1.6 billion)
• Waterfront transit ($1.5 billion)

Together, the projects are estimated to cost at least $13.6 billion.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ojects-even-after-federal-budget-funding.html

Reading between the lines (text and numbers) tells me the SSE will never see the light of night. Nor should it.

How's that Rail-Deck Park coming along there City Council? Yessirreee...nothing like a wilder fantasy when told your previous one has no funding. Oh look! Giant tunneling squirrel...over there!

 

[Rainforest]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...ojects-even-after-federal-budget-funding.html

Reading between the lines (text and numbers) tells me the SSE will never see the light of night. Nor should it.

SSE and SmartTrack will be funded anyway. Eglinton West LRT will be funded as well, since it is formally considered a part of SmartTrack.

Everything else is up in the air and will have to wait till the next round of funding. Maybe Eglinton East will be built with funding transferred from Sheppard East.

 

[TOareaFan]

Under the federal budget, Toronto is still more than $7 billion short of what it requires to pay for urgently needed transit projects. The estimated $5 billion in funding includes $660 million that the feds have already pledged for the Scarborough subway, which leaves us with just $4.3 billion to spend on other projects. The projects the city submitted for funding were:

• SmartTrack ($3.7 billion)
• Relief line ($6.8 billion)
• Eglinton East LRT ($1.6 billion)
• Waterfront transit ($1.5 billion)

Together, the projects are estimated to cost at least $13.6 billion.

The gross dollar amount that the Feds would contribute to these projects would be limited by the new proviso that the funds from the feds cannot exceed 40% of the project total. 40% of $13.6B is only $5.44B anyway....so if Mr.Tory is right (and he seems to be the only one talking about the $5B figure) and Toronto has now got $4.34B "left" out of the $20.1B over 11 years.....that would contribute to $10.85B of projects (which is remarkably close to the top two on your list) and all the city has to do is find $6.51B from either the province or their own resources.