Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[OneCity]

The vested interests being, political competitors. Tory is backed into a corner - he has to support the subway or he loses Scarborough's votership. If that votership is up for grabs, DoFo will ride in, promise the same subway, and grab the votes. Or GDB will want them.

I am really getting fed up with politicians, period.

- Paul

This is how its always been. This is Democracy at work. For all the absurdity that comes along, it does work compared to the alternative and when enough people are ignored you get uglier Politics as someone will come along to capitalize when their is enough voters. The opposition dropped the ball big time with the Ford LRT proposal, and if they keep pushing with no changes to the plan it certainly might get worse. It's pretty clear Scarborough wants their City Centre connected better. Why anyone would keep trumpeting the rejected plan so vigorously with no changes whatsoever after the clear messages sent in the 2 election that followed and the recent bi-elections both Municipally and Provincially is beyond me.

They should be debating the details of the plan to save costs, debating Smarttracks impact & not trying to re-live a debate by pushing a plan that got us into this mess. Its not to say Transit City had no merit and it wasnt the technology that is the problem. Its the poor integration of the Plan. The debate has been had and i dont share any optimism for the City as a whole should the subway get overturned.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is how its always been. This is Democracy at work. For all the absurdity that comes along, it does work compared to the alternative and when enough people are ignored you get uglier Politics as someone will come along to capitalize when their is enough voters. The opposition dropped the ball big time with the Ford LRT proposal, and if they keep pushing with no changes to the plan it certainly might get worse. It's pretty clear Scarborough wants their City Centre connected better. Why anyone would keep trumpeting the rejected plan so vigorously with no changes whatsoever after the clear messages sent in the 2 election that followed and the recent bi-elections both Municipally and Provincially is beyond me.

They should be debating the details of the plan to save costs, debating Smartracks impact & not trying to re-live a debate by pushing a plan that got us into this mess. Its not to say Transit City had no merit and it wasnt the technology that is the problem. Its the poor integration of the Plan.

Is this the only thread you post in? lol

 

[Cobra]

Funny how the low density suburbs demand underground transit but the tony residents of Rosedale have no problem with an at-grade subway.

I think Scarborough always wanted to be "part" of the main TTC network. SRT was viewed as a "segregation" of Scarborough from the rest of the city. I know, there was always Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy but the transfer at Kennedy and the sheer neglect of the SRT is a big motivator at refusing to have a segregated line again. They saw for decades how the city and TTC maintained the other lines while abandoning the SRT to ruins. In a way, being attached to the rest of the network would somehow ensure proper maintenance of that part of the transit infrastructure in that part of the city.

I don't buy it's a technology issue. When Ford and Queen's Park had the MOU, LRT was overwhelmingly supported in Scarborough and had little to no opposition. May I remind some of you that the MOU had LRT on the SRT route. However, the MOU meant that Scarborough was linked to the rest of the city, eliminating that rapid transit segregation. I think that's what Scarborough wanted all along because when city council led by that "over ambitious" Karen Stinz killed the MOU, it reverted back to a segregated LRT line, on the same route with a new vehicles that never existed in Toronto. That's the kind of deja vue that they didn't want to deal with.

I don't agree with the notion that the city and TTC would purposely or/and negligently neglect the SLRT but you have to be freaking hard headed to not understand the "source" of their hostility to the project. The source isn't the people of Scarborough but the TTC, City Council and to some extend some media. The one stop subway is the TTC and Tory's doing, not Scarborough. If Tory and the TTC had brought back the MOU with elevated trains east of Don Mills, the opposition would have died already.

Another pet peeve was that god awful transfer at Kennedy. Yes, they hated the transfer but what they wanted was mostly improvements. Why was it so hard not to just create a transfer like we have at St.George by having the SRT go underground and curve under the BD Line? Hell just make it like an "X" or "+" like Bloor-Yonge and buy MKIII trains. There, you just killed the argument that Scarborough is being treated differently because there's the same transfer in the heart of Yorkville! How much cheaper would that have been? Again, stop blaming the people, my blame will forever be with the TTC and Council.

I just see red when Scarborough residents are attack here while the NYMBY is just as present in other parts of the city. DRL Pape Avenue residents? St.Clair Streetcar ROW? I could go on and on and on...

 

[OneCity]

Is this the only thread you post in? lol

No. But this is the most important to me and to most relevant right now.

 

[Forgotten]

Predict which councillor is going to make the motion to get the Murray subway back on to the table next week! I'm not sure if I have mentioned it before but there likely was a quid pro quo between Tory and Kesmaat to rig the studies to steer this thing away from Tory's precious choo choo trains in exchange for his support on her personal legacy building projects. (rail deck park) There's no way she would have gone on the press conference spree last year about the park without getting the approval of Tory first. It's the worst kind of incest.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

The vested interests being, political competitors. Tory is backed into a corner - he has to support the subway or he loses Scarborough's votership. If that votership is up for grabs, DoFo will ride in, promise the same subway, and grab the votes. Or GDB will want them.

I am really getting fed up with politicians, period.

- Paul

The answer to me right now, is the proposed infrastructure investment bank.

Politicians can't be trusted to deliver and planners are powerless to implement plans. Outsource the decision making process to the private sector, allow an infrastructure investment bank designate individual projects for funding based on their merits, detailed cost-benefit and business-case analyses.

 

[APTA-2048]

Another pet peeve was that god awful transfer at Kennedy. Yes, they hated the transfer but what they wanted was mostly improvements. Why was it so hard not to just create a transfer like we have at St.George by having the SRT go underground and curve under the BD Line? Hell just make it like an "X" or "+" like Bloor-Yonge and buy MKIII trains. There, you just killed the argument that Scarborough is being treated differently because there's the same transfer in the heart of Yorkville! How much cheaper would that have been? Again, stop blaming the people, my blame will forever be with the TTC and Council.

In both the MOU and Transit City plan, the transfer at Kennedy would have been less arduous. The LRT would have been one level above the subway.

 

[crs1026]

They saw for decades how the city and TTC maintained the other lines while abandoning the SRT to ruins. In a way, being attached to the rest of the network would somehow ensure proper maintenance of that part of the transit infrastructure in that part of the city.

I understand we are trading subjective views, and you're as entitled to yours as I am to mine, but please acknowledge that the TTC ran a lot of its system like crap and we are actually all equal participants in that. The SRT was troublesome and it seemed for years that TTC couldn't or wouldn't make it run on time. But..... SRT is not the line where we rear-ended one train with another at speed and killed someone, thanks to lack of maintenance and a history of careless operating practices. If I had to pick a dirty line today, I would choose Sheppard rather than SRT. SRT suffers from 80s station design, which got tired pretty quickly. But nobody meant anything by that....the eighties just weren't good years for design. So yeah, I can see where the sense of getting shafted comes from, but if you look elsewhere there wasn't champagne flowing in fountains or gold leaf getting painted on the roof. And nobody said "Hey let's start breaking our transit into sections and make Scarborough transfer".....the other lines that were to be transfer extensions e.g. Kipling to Pearson never got built. At least SRT did.

I just see red when Scarborough residents are attack here while the NYMBY is just as present in other parts of the city. DRL Pape Avenue residents? St.Clair Streetcar ROW? I could go on and on and on...

Agree NIMBYism is rampant, but I don't believe that is what is really at stake here. It is politicians saying the designs aren't suitable, not the people of Scarborough. Elevated would be accepted - by the riders. LRT would be accepted - by the riders. It is the people trying to leverage and prolong this grievance of past inequities that are raising the fuss.

Even if there was past inequity, I would rather solve it by giving Scarborough $500M of free transit rides than by spending $1B to eliminate the transfer. It may be annoying but, hey, free rides.... that would certainly make Scarborough feel special. Even DoFo hasn't proposed that.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No. But this is the most important to me and to most relevant right now.

It was already approved so why? And I'm curious why you came back before you ban was up lol, I wouldn't sign up for more attacks on me haha.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think Scarborough always wanted to be "part" of the main TTC network. SRT was viewed as a "segregation" of Scarborough from the rest of the city. I know, there was always Victoria Park, Warden and Kennedy but the transfer at Kennedy and the sheer neglect of the SRT is a big motivator at refusing to have a segregated line again. They saw for decades how the city and TTC maintained the other lines while abandoning the SRT to ruins. In a way, being attached to the rest of the network would somehow ensure proper maintenance of that part of the transit infrastructure in that part of the city.

I don't buy it's a technology issue. When Ford and Queen's Park had the MOU, LRT was overwhelmingly supported in Scarborough and had little to no opposition. May I remind some of you that the MOU had LRT on the SRT route. However, the MOU meant that Scarborough was linked to the rest of the city, eliminating that rapid transit segregation. I think that's what Scarborough wanted all along because when city council led by that "over ambitious" Karen Stinz killed the MOU, it reverted back to a segregated LRT line, on the same route with a new vehicles that never existed in Toronto. That's the kind of deja vue that they didn't want to deal with.

I don't agree with the notion that the city and TTC would purposely or/and negligently neglect the SLRT but you have to be freaking hard headed to not understand the "source" of their hostility to the project. The source isn't the people of Scarborough but the TTC, City Council and to some extend some media. The one stop subway is the TTC and Tory's doing, not Scarborough. If Tory and the TTC had brought back the MOU with elevated trains east of Don Mills, the opposition would have died already.

Another pet peeve was that god awful transfer at Kennedy. Yes, they hated the transfer but what they wanted was mostly improvements. Why was it so hard not to just create a transfer like we have at St.George by having the SRT go underground and curve under the BD Line? Hell just make it like an "X" or "+" like Bloor-Yonge and buy MKIII trains. There, you just killed the argument that Scarborough is being treated differently because there's the same transfer in the heart of Yorkville! How much cheaper would that have been? Again, stop blaming the people, my blame will forever be with the TTC and Council.

I just see red when Scarborough residents are attack here while the NYMBY is just as present in other parts of the city. DRL Pape Avenue residents? St.Clair Streetcar ROW? I could go on and on and on...

Well it's because of costs and density. And some of it is backlash for voting for Ford in 2010. The working class in this city will always have that waived over their heads. I agree the city didn't neglect the SRT, there was a recession in the early 1990's, but they could have at least bought the MKIII trains years ago. and kept the Ford McGuinty deal.

 

[OneCity]

It was already approved so why? And I'm curious why you came back before you ban was up lol, I wouldn't sign up for more attacks on me haha.

Because its an important topic about Scarborough and the City which a heavy majority of posts here are non-Scarborough views. I truly didn't expect the level of insults or disdained response I received the first time and I shouldn't have engaged back with the ones throwing insults. I guess its a bit of a reflection of our Politics today. I really just want to provide a perspective of someone that lives in Scarborough, rides transit and has lived all over the City and GTA. We should all be allowed to have an opinion without being insulted. I know my points are far of from many beliefs here but many are more commonly shared than what being discussed in this debate. I can respect anyone views, & light hearted jokes as long as they are not personal attacks. I just have to ignore those.

Sorry if I offend anyone. That's not my intention. We do all share one thing in common as we are all passionate about the City.

I would just have messaged to respond privately but I cant and you asked. I would appreciate if its not responded to negatively by anyone who feels the urge and carry on the transit converstation

 

[coopEng]

Because its an important topic about Scarborough and the City which a heavy majority of posts here are non-Scarborough views. I truly didn't expect the level of insults or disdained response I received the first time and I shouldn't have engaged back with the ones throwing insults. I guess its a bit of a reflection of our Politics today. I really just want to provide a perspective of someone that lives in Scarborough, rides transit and has lived all over the City and GTA. We should all be allowed to have an opinion without being insulted. I know my points are far of from many beliefs here but many are more commonly shared than what being discussed in this debate. I can respect anyone views, & light hearted jokes as long as they are not personal attacks. I just have to ignore those.

Sorry if I offend anyone. That's not my intention. We do all share one thing in common as we are all passionate about the City.

I would just have messaged to respond privately but I cant and you asked. I would appreciate if its not responded to negatively by anyone who feels the urge and carry on the transit converstation

I dont see anything wrong with defending the subway extension if you go by its merits (whatever those may or may not be) - I think it would be fair to say your biased based on where you live? That the whole debate has been biased by preference rather than sound decision making? Also, that you agree the money is being spent wastefully, but for a reason that "Scarborough" wants?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Because its an important topic about Scarborough and the City which a heavy majority of posts here are non-Scarborough views. I truly didn't expect the level of insults or disdained response I received the first time and I shouldn't have engaged back with the ones throwing insults. I guess its a bit of a reflection of our Politics today. I really just want to provide a perspective of someone that lives in Scarborough, rides transit and has lived all over the City and GTA. We should all be allowed to have an opinion without being insulted. I know my points are far of from many beliefs here but many are more commonly shared than what being discussed in this debate. I can respect anyone views, & light hearted jokes as long as they are not personal attacks. I just have to ignore those.

Sorry if I offend anyone. That's not my intention. We do all share one thing in common as we are all passionate about the City.

I would just have messaged to respond privately but I cant and you asked. I would appreciate if its not responded to negatively by anyone who feels the urge and carry on the transit converstation

No no no, I'm not saying you do, just curious because I know level of fire against the Scarborough city subway here. I enjoy your posts so far and hop they continue haha. Personally I support both subways now because I want this debate to end.

 

[BurlOak]

In both the MOU and Transit City plan, the transfer at Kennedy would have been less arduous. The LRT would have been one level above the subway.

With the MOU, there would be no transfer for the majority of riders going from SRT to Don Mills through Kennedy. The transfer would have been for those on the lighter traveled Eglinton East LRT.

I don't agree with the notion that the city and TTC would purposely or/and negligently neglect the SLRT but you have to be freaking hard headed to not understand the "source" of their hostility to the project. The source isn't the people of Scarborough but the TTC, City Council and to some extend some media. The one stop subway is the TTC and Tory's doing, not Scarborough. If Tory and the TTC had brought back the MOU with elevated trains east of Don Mills, the opposition would have died already.

You are omitting the Provincinal Liberal Government. They studied the combined SRT/ECRLT plan (in a June 2012 report) and found it to be the best. They did not release this report until it was FOI'd by Michael Schabas in December 2013.
This report was hidden was likely available in draft form when Council voted to kill the MOU plan.
The report was hidden from Council in when they voted to reinstate the transfer LRT plan.
The report was hidden from Ontarian during the famous Mitzi Hunter "subway champion" be-election.
The report was hidden from Ontarian when MTO Minister Glen Murray came up with his own subway routing.
The report was hidden until many minds had been switched to subway, because it was the only option (that had been studied) to the transfer LRT.
I would say they are the MAJOR reason why this mess occurred.

The vested interests being, political competitors. Tory is backed into a corner - he has to support the subway or he loses Scarborough's votership. If that votership is up for grabs, DoFo will ride in, promise the same subway, and grab the votes. Or GDB will want them.

I am really getting fed up with politicians, period.

- Paul

Let's call a provincial election now. Doug Ford gets in as an MPP for the Conservatives. John Tory can kill the subway with no fear of Ford running for mayor next year.

 

[OneCity]

I dont see anything wrong with defending the subway extension if you go by its merits (whatever those may or may not be) - I think it would be fair to say your biased based on where you live? That the whole debate has been biased by preference rather than sound decision making? Also, that you agree the money is being spent wastefully, but for a reason that "Scarborough" wants?

Very fair to say I am biased and passionate. Not fair to judge the debate or residents off Politicians talking points. The overall Scarborough views are poorly represented in the media and by Politicians who talk nonsense because that what they do. Always have and always will. Scarborough deserves better than the investment of previous generations and Cobra detailed that very well and also deserves better than both plans on the table. Rob Ford really cut the middle as far as this line goes. Exclude anything else he did. The connection of SCC to the City is very important to many people and the transfers offered in Transit City are really not helpful in any respect as many seem to believe. Not only optically but they do add a layer of inconvenience in locations which really dont make sense to many of us

Bias aside I really believe its for the better of the City Politics that we provide better connectivity into the heart of Scarborough whether it be LRT, subway, ski lifts or whatever.