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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Centre4 said:
I also feel some type of incentive program to have office space locate to the Centre is required. Perhaps in the form of a tax incentive.
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I know this isn't what you intended, but the "tax incentive" that immediately strikes me is $4B and rising. Make that an incentive cum subsidy.
 
WislaHD said:
David Miller went on Metromorning this morning, said that Dalton McGuinty shares blame for transit frustration, and that the Scarborough subway will never be built. Also says Scarborough subway price tag will continue to go up, and that there is no hope for additional stops on Lawrence due to bedrock.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/programs/metromorning/transit-plan-frustration-1.4034030
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Many thanks for that! Listened to the CBC interview, highly recommend others do too. It may seem illogical on the basis of one interview, but it gives me hope that rational minds (or rather limited pocketbooks) will mean the SSE won't get built.

I was never aware of this blog, but that interview has me there now:
The Transit Issue
Spring 2017

http://www.theethnicaisle.com/

Here's the interview in text with David Miller:
http://www.theethnicaisle.com/transit-issue/2017/3/6/david-miller
 
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steveintoronto said:
Many thanks for that! Listened to the CBC interview, highly recommend others do too. It may seem illogical on the basis of one interview, but it gives me hope that rational minds (or rather limited pocketbooks) will mean the SSE won't get built.

I was never aware of this blog, but that interview has me there now:
The Transit Issue
Spring 2017

http://www.theethnicaisle.com/

Here's the interview in text with David Miller:
http://www.theethnicaisle.com/transit-issue/2017/3/6/david-miller
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From a comment in the article:
It's easier to go from Scarborough to downtown than from Scarborough to Scarborough. We need a better transit network. Transit City provided that.
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^ This
 
steveintoronto said:
What's been forgotten in this whole 'avoiding transfers' aspect is that the suburban Metro Councillors were the ones pushing for the 'one seat ride downtown' (which meant down University and Yonge at the time) on the 'new' Bloor-Danforth subway.
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That's a complete lie. It was a TTC-run pilot project. They did a massive study where people reported their origin and destination, and found that only a small number of people got any benefit and about as many people were taking a trip along Bloor-Danforth that might require waiting longer for their train.

Metro Council didn't have anything to do with the project. The TTC were the ones who thought of it and made the decision to kill it. It didn't have anything to do with people waiting on the stairs either - it was messing up the entire subway network since the TTC prioritized the alternating service pattern, so a delay on any of the three parts of the system would impact all three.
steveintoronto said:
We all know what happened to that, and the 'Y' sits virtually unused to this day save for garbage runs and stock movement.
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Stock movement is why the wye was built in the first place. Greenwood became the main subway yard when it was opened, and there needed to be some way of getting trains to Yonge from there.
 
Leo_Chan said:
From a comment in the article:
It's easier to go from Scarborough to downtown than from Scarborough to Scarborough. We need a better transit network. Transit City provided that.
^ This
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To be fair:

Transit City
  • Malvern LRT --> Now Crosstown East (planned)
  • Eglinton Crosstown --> Now Under Construction
So that leaves us with the RT. The old RT didn't addressed the "Scarborough to Scarborough travel" either. Changing train technology but using the same corridors and stations wouldn't have addressed that either. The "Scarborough to Scarborough transit" is being addressed by Eglinton (2021) and Crosstown East (planned). Let's not forget that Malvern was deferred by the province.
 
Cobra said:
To be fair:

Transit City
  • Malvern LRT --> Now Crosstown East (planned)
  • Eglinton Crosstown --> Now Under Construction
So that leaves us with the RT. The old RT didn't addressed the "Scarborough to Scarborough travel" either. Changing train technology but using the same corridors and stations wouldn't have addressed that either. The "Scarborough to Scarborough transit" is being addressed by Eglinton (2021) and Crosstown East (planned). Let's not forget that Malvern was deferred by the province.
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And Sheppard?
 
steveintoronto said:
What's been forgotten in this whole 'avoiding transfers' aspect is that the suburban Metro Councillors were the ones pushing for the 'one seat ride downtown' (which meant down University and Yonge at the time) on the 'new' Bloor-Danforth subway. We all know what happened to that, and the 'Y' sits virtually unused to this day save for garbage runs and stock movement.
Click to expand...
amnesiajune said:
That's a complete lie. It was a TTC-run pilot project. They did a massive study where people reported their origin and destination, and found that only a small number of people got any benefit and about as many people were taking a trip along Bloor-Danforth that might require waiting longer for their train.

Metro Council didn't have anything to do with the project. The TTC were the ones who thought of it and made the decision to kill it. It didn't have anything to do with people waiting on the stairs either - it was messing up the entire subway network since the TTC prioritized the alternating service pattern, so a delay on any of the three parts of the system would impact all three.


Stock movement is why the wye was built in the first place. Greenwood became the main subway yard when it was opened, and there needed to be some way of getting trains to Yonge from there.
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I suggest you provide a reference if you're going to be throwing around words like "a complete lie". The TTC was against the wye from the beginning, but the only way many of the suburban Metro councillors could be sold on building the Bloor-Danforth line was the "one ride downtown". You conflate the financing behind the scheme with the actual failure to make it work, something that the TTC was concerned about from the start, let alone the massive costs of building the wye and the now unused platforms.

I'll dig out the political aspect later when I have time.

Edit to Add: This isn't the "one seat to downtown" issue, but illustrates the mindset behind it:
Historicist: Opposing the Subway
In the late 1950s, several suburban municipalities tried to block construction of the Bloor-Danforth and University subway lines.

By Jamie Bradburn


Cartoon, the Telegram, August 21, 1958.

As we’ve witnessed this week, city councillors have no qualms about promoting public transit schemes in their wards regardless of whatever makes sense across the entire city. Elected representatives from Etobicoke and Scarborough who back contentious new subway lines fit within a long tradition of suburban politicians thinking within their fiefdoms. Back in the 1950s, their predecessors in Metropolitan Toronto were among the loudest opponents of the construction of the Bloor-Danforth and University subway lines out of belief that their constituents would be slammed with tax bills for infrastructure they would never use.

While leaders in inner suburbs like East York, Leaside, and Swansea embraced a new east-west subway to relieve congestion, their western counterparts were less enthusiastic when the TTC posted signs in March 1957 promising a future line along Bloor Street. Objections were mainly financial, with fears that the costs associated with building a new transit line would force cuts to other public works projects. Some officials, like reeves H.O. Waffle of Etobicoke and Chris Tonks of York, felt Metro needed to finish ongoing infrastructure projects before proceeding with a subway. In the small lakeshore communities of Long Branch, Mimico, and New Toronto, officials resented the extra cash commuters paid to travel downtown thanks to the TTC’s fare zone system. “I will never support a Bloor subway until the TTC institutes a single-fare system,” declared Mimico Mayor Gus Edwards. “The outer zones are paying double fares for the present [Yonge] subway and they never use it.”[...]
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http://torontoist.com/2013/05/historicist-opposing-the-subway/

Again, I'll dig out the Metro Council suburban councillor opposition to having to transfer at St George or Bay later.
 
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I would have no problem other than the cost of a one stop subway if I had the confidence that Sheppard and eglinton east lrt was going to be built as well. Instead I see a one stop subway canabalizing all the funds
 
steveintoronto said:
I suggest you provide a reference if you're going to be throwing around words like "a complete lie". The TTC was against the wye from the beginning, but the only way many of the suburban Metro councillors could be sold on building the Bloor-Danforth line was the "one ride downtown". You conflate the financing behind the scheme with the actual failure to make it work, something that the TTC was concerned about from the start, let alone the massive costs of building the wye and the now unused platforms.

I'll dig out the political aspect later when I have time.

Edit to Add: This isn't the "one seat to downtown" issue, but illustrates the mindset behind it:
http://torontoist.com/2013/05/historicist-opposing-the-subway/

Again, I'll dig out the Metro Council suburban councillor opposition to having to transfer at St George or Bay later.
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It is in p. 96 of Ed Levy's magnum opus Rapid Transit in Toronto - under Pt. 2 The Subway Era 1945-1973 7.2 An Early Central Area Rapid Transit Network is Conceived - and Implemented. Basically TTC is against integrating Line 2 with Line 1, but Metro and the Province made funding for Line 2 contingent on building the wye and a 6 month trial integrated operation. It went further to talk about the plusses and minuses of the scheme.

AoD
 
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How would a 1-stop Sheppard Subway extension be presented as. Technically, it would just be a 0-stop extension with just a tunnel and lots of emergency exits.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
It is in p. 96 of Ed Levy's magnum opus Rapid Transit in Toronto - under Pt. 2 The Subway Era 1945-1973 7.2 An Early Central Area Rapid Transit Network is Conceived - and Implemented. Basically TTC is against integrating Line 2 with Line 1, but Metro and the Province made funding for Line 2 contingent on building the wye and a 6 month trial integrated operation.

AoD
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Many thanks. I've read it many times, but to try and re-find it on Google requires having the right search tags, and the only ones I could think of showed the faulty mechanics of operating the 'wye' (partially the TTC's shortcoming due to wishing to sequence trains exactly) but I was happy to discover the 'Historicist' article in searching. Wow...I didn't realize the 'infectious dysfunction' went back that far. Cdn Supreme Court decisions on the OMB rulings yet! I only had time to gloss over it, I'm certainly going to be poring over that later this evening.
 
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