Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

Really skeptical of that claim. Earlier this month, our Chief Planner mentioned that in the best case scenario, the SSE offers 5 minute trip time savings over the existing RT (this is presumably for trips to/from STC).

It's not the time savings. It's the transfer people hate. And the minute they cut the Malvern TC stop, they added a transfer for almost all of Malvern. It was moronic. Boggles the mind that they still don't want to add stops back. They could win over Malvern with the extra stop.

If I have to take a bus, I'd rather just stay on the bus to STC. That's how the thinking goes. Now if you tell me that you will place an LRT stop within walking distance, that changes the calculus.....

 

[Cobra]

I don't think it would have helped - you are assuming people make rational decisions given access to information. I don't necessary believe that line of argument.

Sorry but you're coming off as unbelievably arrogant. So people are irrational because you know best and they disagree with you?

Hell, even previous transit planners from the article I posted from the globe and mail said that subway vs LRT was dumb and that the best solution was upgrading the SRT all along.

People complained about the transfer at Kennedy for decades, so addressing it was the best thing to do while keeping skytrains.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Scarborough RT currently takes 9-10 minutes from Kennedy to STC. In the last SSE report it states that using the McCowan Corridor the subway will take 6.5-7.5 minutes. Factoring in the transfer at Kennedy the average time saved will be approximately 5 minutes.

If they are budgeting 3 mins for the transfer and referring to the current SRT, it's bunk. Especially during rush on the way home. People are lined up 5 deep to catch the SRT.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sorry but you're coming off as unbelievably arrogant. So people are irrational because you know best and they disagree with you?

Hell, even previous transit planners from the article I posted from the globe and mail said that subway vs LRT was dumb and that the best solution was upgrading the SRT all along.

People complained about the transferry at Kennedy for decades, so addressing it was the best thing to do while keeping skytrains.

Well, the outcome speaks for itself - 10+ years and we are still trying to figure out what to do and haven't even put in a shovel yet, at a price tag that is at once awe-inspiring and impact underwhelming. I think that isn't what any rational person who use the system would choose.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

It's not the time savings. It's the transfer people hate. And the minute they cut the Malvern TC stop, they added a transfer for almost all of Malvern. It was moronic. Boggles the mind that they still don't want to add stops back. They could win over Malvern with the extra stop.

If I have to take a bus, I'd rather just stay on the bus to STC. That's how the thinking goes. Now if you tell me that you will place an LRT stop within walking distance, that changes the calculus.....

This is all there is to it.

No one will have buyer remorse in Scarborough over the SLRT. LRT will be built on Eglinton and Kingston where it convenient and the benefits are unquestionable. The subway will make many commutes easier, and make the City Centre more desirable with a better connection to the City.

In the future the next round of expansion will have a proper foundation to finish the lines. ie.) LRT from City Center West up to Malvern TC and connect to UTSC. Subway from SCC to the Sheppard stub. That is a far better long term vision and hacking in LRT on Sheppard and SCC to different technologies when there is really minimal benefits, and inconvenience. The subway is about long term vision that you would only care about if you live here I guess. I wish it wasn't one stop but I still see the bigger picture and as long as they firm up the Eglinton East LRT Scarborough will be headed in the right direction for the future.

 

[Leo_Chan]

If we think in a way that the general public would, how would we define the current transit expansion types?
Underground Central Eglinton LRT = Subway.
Surface ends of Eglinton LRT = Streetcar.
SSE = Subway (obviously).
Finch West LRT = Streetcar.
SLRT = SRT (not thought as elevated though).
ScamTrack = GO (but not real)

People need to know that LRTs are not necessarily streetcars as they can be at grade, elevated, tunnelled, grade separated intersection. Misinformation IMO is the main problem. Alternative Facts at work here.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Subway, not old LRT plan, only option for Scarborough: Colle

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...t-plan-only-option-for-scarborough-colle.html

.....

- It will be under Byford’s leadership, as directed by several city councils and mayors, that the TTC will open a new subway line this year to York Region and continues to diligently advance work to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway line east to the Scarborough Town Centre. Millions of dollars and countless council decisions later, work to extend the subway east continues.

- And Byford is criticized for telling council the truth that the Scarborough LRT isn’t a feasible plan anymore. Let’s be clear, there is no plan to build an LRT to replace the Scarborough RT. It is complete fiction to suggest the Scarborough LRT is still an option on the table for discussion. Council rejected the LRT option in 2013 and, in countless votes, endorsed the Scarborough subway. Since 2013, there has not been an LRT option presented at council for debate.

- Some have tried to claim that the cost of an LRT has not risen over time and still quote a $1.8-billion estimate that is now seven years old, which is extremely misleading. Metrolinx has also made it clear the LRT plan has not been advanced for four years and the province has repeatedly committed to funding the subway, as has the federal government.

- The truth, that some critics don’t want to hear, is that the city is moving ahead with a plan to build an express subway and an Eglinton East LRT. Around $44 million and several years of work by staff have already been spent to advance the plan for a subway to the Scarborough Town Centre. The suggestion that the Ontario government would simply take the $1.48 billion dedicated for the subway and move it back to building the LRT is simply not true. MPPs in Scarborough and our Premier Kathleen Wynne have all been fully committed to delivering this subway, not an LRT.

.....

 

[Voltz]

If this Subway plan was so good, it would not require this extensive PR campaign, nor would they have to lie about it.

 

[OneCity]

If this Subway plan was so good, it would not require this extensive PR campaign, nor would they have to lie about it.

Same could be said for the SLRT. I mean they are still looking for ways to sell it a decade later. Not sure the SSE crowd is selling it as much as banding together sending a message to combat the relentless attack to push the SLRT. The one stop is not great but either is the SLRT. Smarttrack is the issue but also not horrible. Time to move on or it will likely be subway only that gets built.

 

[crs1026]

If we think in a way that the general public would, how would we define the current transit expansion types?
Underground Central Eglinton LRT = Subway.
Surface ends of Eglinton LRT = Streetcar.
SSE = Subway (obviously).
Finch West LRT = Streetcar.
SLRT = SRT (not thought as elevated though).
ScamTrack = GO (but not real)

People need to know that LRTs are not necessarily streetcars as they can be at grade, elevated, tunnelled, grade separated intersection. Misinformation IMO is the main problem. Alternative Facts at work here.

There is another group in the mix. It is not simply "Average Joe voters" versus politicians versus bureaucrats. There are also lobbying special interests. Finch didn't slip through in the night. There were construction unions, contractors, and developers who all had an interest in the project going ahead now as LRT, rather than waiting a couple decades and eventually having a subway when we could afford one (as Mammo wanted). That group has tremendous impact, although they remain relatively invisible.

Each group deserves some blame. Are we going to blame the voters for allowing Davis to saddle us with the crappy SRT? To some degree, we have to excuse voters of the day for trusting Davis that the technology would be suitable, rather than waging a pitched battle for a subway right from the start, or sticking with the original grade separated CLRV idea. Lastman? He was the most determined, and the best at presenting a concept. At the time, most people and pundits did believe Sheppard was crowded enough for higher order transit. And, the LRT concept was not really understood. The public error was not fighting to complete the whole line....but, at that time the public was clearly pushing back on spending.

Like it or not, thanks to Ford the Scarborough voters have discovered that they hold power. At this point, they are likely unstoppable. Except, now the rest of us are hostages of each other, because all of us will pay for their expectations. It's probably too late to stop the subway, but it may not be too late to push back on the things that make it so expensive for so little gain. Put back the intermediate stations so it serves more riders. Challenge the need for the deep-bore tunnel. Challenge the "non-intrusive construction" promise. Let the pricetag be what it is.

- Paul

 

[Centre4]

Long time reader, first time poster here! I have always felt, since the TTC recommended doing so in 2006, that refurbishment of the SRT cars to Mark II or Mark III vehicles and an extension of the SRT line to Malvern Town Centre was the most appropriate solution. I could never get fully on-board with what I saw as the "in-between" but more expensive solution of converting the line to LRT technology.

As for the line 2 extension, given that the LRT conversion will likely not happen I think we do need to move forward with the subway option, but determine ways to significantly reduce the price. I have always been open to an elevated alignment but I know there would be fierce local opposition to that.

Finally, I do believe that Scarborough Centre has more long-term development potential than some would otherwise suggest. It also has the backing of the City of Toronto Official Plan in this regard.

 

[salsa]

Subway, not old LRT plan, only option for Scarborough: Colle

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/com...t-plan-only-option-for-scarborough-colle.html

There's also an editorial by John Tory in the Sun. Appears to be part of a coordinated BS campaign today in defence of the subway.

 

[dowlingm]

If Miller had left alone the plan already on the books to refurbish and extend the existing RT technology and buy new Mark 3 trainsets rather than convert the thing to LRT, and simply focused his Transit City LRT plans elsewhere, we wouldn't even be having these discussions right now. It opened pandoras box to all of the subway/LRT debate. The RT would already be extended to Sheppard, have been refurbished and new trains been bought, and Sheppard LRT probably would already be done and operating due to all the provinces and cities funds and energies not being focused on the RT replacement as it is right now.

The point of replacing the RT was to

• obtain economies of scale where one fleet of vehicles would no longer be needed
• allow RT extensions at grade-shared ROW where that made sense - impossible with ICTS
• allow RT trains to operate from the Sheppard yard shared with Sheppard East LRT which helped the economics of that route

It wasn't just change for the sake of change. If anything the mistake made was not to commit to refurbing the SRT into the mid2020s, then rush building Sheppard East and Eglinton East (Scarborough-Malvern) so that when the time came to shut down SRT for refit that there were other viable options available rather than a crazy number of buses.

 

[Centre4]

There's also an editorial by John Tory in the Sun. Appears to be part of a coordinated BS campaign today in defence of the subway.

They should really stop referring to it as an extension to "Scarborough Town Centre" - I guess this is what is more familiar to people, but this is misleading in that it makes the mall the focus... when it should be just "Scarborough Centre" which is the overall area

 

[dowlingm]

Long time reader, first time poster here! I have always felt, since the TTC recommended doing so in 2006, that refurbishment of the SRT cars to Mark II or Mark III vehicles and an extension of the SRT line to Malvern Town Centre was the most appropriate solution. I could never get fully on-board with what I saw as the "in-between" but more expensive solution of converting the line to LRT technology.

The point there is that the SRT extension was a single project, whereas LRT allowed for the creation of a network. I thought one of the biggest mistakes of the original TC announcement was not committing to building the northern section of the SRT extension as a day-1 part of Sheppard East, with a promise to both run a Sheppard East and an SRT service over that route.

As for the line 2 extension, given that the LRT conversion will likely not happen I think we do need to move forward with the subway option, but determine ways to significantly reduce the price. I have always been open to an elevated alignment but I know there would be fierce local opposition to that.

If you're going to put forward an elevated option, you have to explain how *that* will be politically acceptable in that area, whereas digging up a woodlot was not. When you have politicians who won't accept even relatively minor inconveniences, why would staff bother bringing something fairly explosive like elevating to the table?

Finally, I do believe that Scarborough Centre has more long-term development potential than some would otherwise suggest. It also has the backing of the City of Toronto Official Plan in this regard.

Scarborough Town has had "long term potential" for a "long term" now. All jokes aside, it would be helpful if you could explain why Scarborough Town will succeed in building a sustainable mixed use community, not just condos and a mall, when North York Centre with its two subway lines could not.