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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Cobra said:
Have to agree with Avenue. The project (Transit City plan) was poorly explained to citizens.

Those going to consultations and following city hall debates is a tiny minority of the population.

Perhaps the TTC should have explained the projects themselves via the media, not letting media's with their own opinions/agendas doing the explaining for them
Click to expand...

Agree. Miller's tenure was far from perfect. The "we know better than you" mentality was much in evidence, in everything from garbage bins to trees to LRT. Change implementation was not his forte, even if his ideas were winners. And then there was garbage......

Alas, there was no model of a successful LRT that made people say "We want one of those" instead of "Whaaa ????". Had Miller pushed for a pilot line, even just one or two miles of true LRT implementation, he might have made converts and elicited "me-too" demands from Councillors. LRT is still an unproven concept in Toronto. (Sorry, the Queensway is NOT LRT). Can't blame voters for being wooed by subway (which they can experience, and are comfortable with) but not LRT (which they haven't, at least not in this city). This may be something that just can't be overcome in the Scarborough debate.

- Paul
 
Cobra said:
Have to agree with Avenue. The project (Transit City plan) was poorly explained to citizens.

Those going to consultations and following city hall debates is a tiny minority of the population.

Perhaps the TTC should have explained the projects themselves via the media, not letting media's with their own opinions/agendas doing the explaining for them
Click to expand...

At some point, you have to stop blaming the org and the city and let the blame resides on those who didn't bother to do research on what's most important to them (so claimed).

AoD
 
Last edited:
crs1026 said:
Alas, there was no model of a successful LRT that made people say "We want one of those" instead of "Whaaa ????". Had Miller pushed for a pilot line, even just one or two miles of true LRT implementation, he might have made converts and elicited "me-too" demands from Councillors. LRT is still an unproven concept in Toronto. (Sorry, the Queensway is NOT LRT). Can't blame voters for being wooed by subway (which they can experience) but not LRT (which they haven't, at least not in this city). This may be something that just can't be overcome in the Scarborough debate.

- Paul
Click to expand...

That's sort of independent from this example though - considering on street LRT is a totally different creature from what was proposed in this case. I mean, if the voters actually bought the messaging that this is going to run in mixed traffic (which is as blatantly false as it gets), the blame is theirs and those who perpetuate misinformation.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
At some point, you have to stop blaming the org and the city and let the blame resides on those who didn't bother to do research on what's most important to them (so claimed),

AoD
Click to expand...

People needs to get over themselves on this board. We're the minority here. That's the city and TTC job to use their resources (provided mostly by taxes) to reach out to the population and give proper information.

You can be frustrated all you want and yes, even if the majority thought that Transit was just a better St.Clair, that the RT would be more of the same and that the central portion of Eglinton was the exception.

You had medias and editorials giving their own take on the project and people read those articles. What was the TTC doing to debunk some of those misconceptions?
 
crs1026 said:
Agree. Miller's tenure was far from perfect. The "we know better than you" mentality was much in evidence, in everything from garbage bins to trees to LRT. Change implementation was not his forte, even if his ideas were winners. And then there was garbage......

Alas, there was no model of a successful LRT that made people say "We want one of those" instead of "Whaaa ????". Had Miller pushed for a pilot line, even just one or two miles of true LRT implementation, he might have made converts and elicited "me-too" demands from Councillors. LRT is still an unproven concept in Toronto. (Sorry, the Queensway is NOT LRT). Can't blame voters for being wooed by subway (which they can experience, and are comfortable with) but not LRT (which they haven't, at least not in this city). This may be something that just can't be overcome in the Scarborough debate.

- Paul
Click to expand...

If Miller had left alone the plan already on the books to refurbish and extend the existing RT technology and buy new Mark 3 trainsets rather than convert the thing to LRT, and simply focused his Transit City LRT plans elsewhere, we wouldn't even be having these discussions right now. It opened pandoras box to all of the subway/LRT debate. The RT would already be extended to Sheppard, have been refurbished and new trains been bought, and Sheppard LRT probably would already be done and operating due to all the provinces and cities funds and energies not being focused on the RT replacement as it is right now.
 
Cobra said:
People needs to get over themselves on this board. We're the minority here. That's the city and TTC job to use their resources (provided mostly by taxes) to reach out to the population and give proper information.

You can be frustrated all you want and yes, even if the majority thought that Transit was just a better St.Clair, that the RT would be more of the same and that the central portion of Eglinton was the exception.

You had medias and editorials giving their own take on the project and people read those articles. What was the TTC doing to debunk some of those misconceptions?
Click to expand...

Please, it wasn't like the media wasn't debunking the misconception. You're dealing with confirmation bias here.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
At some point, you have to stop blaming the org and the city and let the blame resides on those who didn't bother to do research on what's most important to them (so claimed).

AoD
Click to expand...

Since this debate started with my post... I didn't make the subway decision neither did I vote for the likes of Doug Ford and John Tory. But we really have to understand that getting upset with the public because they are dumb and uninformed has never gotten anyone anywhere. Public will always be dumb and informed. That's the most basic problem of political process.

There was a branding/information failure here and I don't think any of us should deny it.
 
robmausser said:
If Miller had left alone the plan already on the books to refurbish and extend the existing RT technology and buy new Mark 3 trainsets rather than convert the thing to LRT, and simply focused his Transit City LRT plans elsewhere, we wouldn't even be having these discussions right now. It opened pandoras box to all of the subway/LRT debate. The RT would already be extended to Sheppard, have been refurbished and new trains been bought, and Sheppard LRT probably would already be done and operating due to all the provinces and cities funds and energies not being focused on the RT replacement as it is right now.
Click to expand...

I have some doubts about that particular interpretation as well - I think at issue is how transit largesse is ultimately being interpreted as a "free for all".

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Please, it wasn't like the media wasn't debunking the misconception. You're dealing with confirmation bias here.

AoD
Click to expand...

None were. That's my point. That was the TTC role to do so.

From living in Montreal, the STM is way more proactive at reaching the public by all type of media than the TTC. They are on TV, radio and newspapers when they need to set the record straight.

During the Transit Era, the politics and media did the talking, not the transit planners and TTC officials, something that doesn't happen in Montreal as transit is completely free of politics meddling at the municipal level.
 
Cobra said:
Again, get over yourself.
Finch barely got any opposition and Eglinton is a different project than the LRT on the SRT corridor
Click to expand...

Finch barely got any opposition because nobody gave a **** about it politically.

Cobra said:
None were. That's my point. That was the TTC role to do so.
From living in Montreal, the STM is way more proactive at reaching the public by all type of media than the TTC
Click to expand...

I don't think it would have helped - you are assuming people make rational decisions given access to information. I don't necessary believe that line of argument.

Avenue said:
Since this debate started with my post... I didn't make the subway decision neither did I vote for the likes of Doug Ford and John Tory. But we really have to understand that getting upset with the public because they are dumb and uninformed has never gotten anyone anywhere. Public will always be dumb and informed. That's the most basic problem of political process.

There was a branding/information failure here and I don't think any of us should deny it.
Click to expand...

Well, the best way for people to learn is for them to live with the inadequacies of their decisions.

AoD
 
WislaHD said:
Finch and Eglinton will open, and the people in this city will realize what colossal idiots they've been over (then) the past 12 years.
Click to expand...

I thought Finch was mainly for local transit, with the surface route and really frequent stop spacing and all. If so, how's it a relevant comparison here?
 
Cobra said:
Make up your mind, are you blaming people or politicians? The people supports Finch.
When politicians like Mammolitti tried to meddle, no one was listing on that corridor
Click to expand...

Make up my mind on what? It's not an either or - it's both? Politicians don't operate in a vacuum - and many take active advantage of misinformation to shape and mould them to their ends - and unlike you know who, Mammo isn't nearly as good at it (the lack of an existing system that is falling apart helps). Plus don't forget, you have in the mix of it all a provincial government that is especially vulnerable at the time. It was the perfect storm.

AoD
 
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