Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

And what to do with the RT tracks when it closes, they should be transplanted somewhere else for a new RT route.

I know that's kind of a joke, but I agree. It's a large chunk of subway infrastructure that could work great in one of the many transit-starved areas of the GTHA.

 

[OneCity]

And what to do with the RT tracks when it closes, they should be transplanted somewhere else for a new RT route.

Not in the near future... But they will likely be re-used after the subway

 

[OneCity]

But we're spending 3.5 billion to get rid of a few minutes in the current plan too.

Not that I disagree with the general point of your post. But seeing as I completely lack faith in Metrolinx in implementing decent signal priority, I must admit I'd prefer total grade separation in concept cause I'm pretty sure the Crosstown East will be an exercise in frustration when riding it daily. Costs aside, of course. I don't know how much a skytrain esque system would cost relative to the at-grade one, but I do know it would be cheaper than underground.


I doubt the liberals will win, so another government could cancel the project. But if thats the hill the liberals choose to die on, the NDP and conservatives might not want to risk swaying those areas back to liberal control. Humans tend to have short memories.

The Conservative will be more on board than the Liberals.

1. Its the same capital $$ commitment not matter what technology
2.They don't pay the operating costs with subway
3.They can blame the Liberals for not delivering Scarborough the 3 stop as promised and they'll use this rhetoric to help support Doug
4.If Tory gets in itll be a one stop, If Ford gets in Smartrack & Sheppard LRT will be cancelled and extra stops added. If transfer LRT candidate gets in. God bless us all.. Shit will hit the fan for decades to come

The Provincial Opposition doesnt have to wear any blame, pay anything more, and if Ford gets in they can act like hero's for delivering a 2-3 stop. The subway is getting built unless the Downtown Left can hi-jack the vote next year (which is not totally out of the question) and then all hell breaks loose in this City. The Province will have zero interest in cancelling this project.

 

[Voltz]

Yes and that extra $2B would have solved Scarborough once and for all while permanently upgrade Eglinton.

We save $2B to spend $3.35B on a one stop subway. Do the math instead of this pointless LRT fits all rethoric

There was no Scarborough Subway movement at the time, the choice at the time was either the Finch, Sheppard Eglinton and Scarborough LRT's or just the all underground Eglinton with no SRT extension. It would hardy have been worthwhile or the least bit intelligent at the time to waste $2 billion on Eglinton and cancel all those other projects just to stop something at the time that was not on the table.

 

[OneCity]

There was no Scarborough Subway movement at the time, the choice at the time was either the Finch, Sheppard Eglinton and Scarborough LRT's or just the all underground Eglinton with no SRT extension. It would hardy have been worthwhile or the least bit intelligent at the time to waste $2 billion on Eglinton and cancel all those other projects just to stop something at the time that was not on the table.

But that the stupidity, superiority and short sightedness of the SLRT Political advocates. They cant see past their own plan and admit there's an issue with transfer. Look where we are today and they still don't get it or care to. Zero compromise and against the will of 99% of Scarborough Politicians are determined to ram it in.

Its all fun and games comparing to a 1-stop subway right now. Its an easy attack in its current form. But come election time there will be atleast another subway option and even Tory's plan will be firmed up. If all they can do is say NO to everything but their own plan, then they deserve this subway too. Really. How far can you keep pushing a rejected design and believing a better outcome is coming? It really can get much worse for everyone.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's not hoing to happen in the working lifetime of anybody here. Not without a serious change of the way transit is managed in the GTA. And definitely not with the aversion to tax increases most Toronto residents have.

In the past year, the City of Toronto has implemented a property tax levy and hotel tax to generate $100 Million annually for infrastructure, without any controversy. The proposed road tolls were supported by Torontonians, and these three tools would've cumulatively generated $300 Million annually, if not for interference from the Wynne Liberals. If Torontonians were as averse to tax increases as you say, these would've generated a lot more controversy.

 

[APTA-2048]

4.If Tory gets in itll be a one stop, If Ford gets in Smartrack & Sheppard LRT will be cancelled and extra stops added. If transfer LRT candidate gets in. God bless us all.. Shit will hit the fan for decades to come

Dont kid yourself. Shit could hit the fan with Doug Ford too. You may get your subway extension, but not much else.

 

[BurlOak]

The Conservative will be more on board than the Liberals.

1. Its the same capital $$ commitment not matter what technology
2.They don't pay the operating costs with subway
3.They can blame the Liberals for not delivering Scarborough the 3 stop as promised and they'll use this rhetoric to help support Doug
4.If Tory gets in itll be a one stop, If Ford gets in Smartrack & Sheppard LRT will be cancelled and extra stops added. If transfer LRT candidate gets in. God bless us all.. Shit will hit the fan for decades to come

The Provincial Opposition doesnt have to wear any blame, pay anything more, and if Ford gets in they can act like hero's for delivering a 2-3 stop. The subway is getting built unless the Downtown Left can hi-jack the vote next year (which is not totally out of the question) and then all hell breaks loose in this City. The Province will have zero interest in cancelling this project.

I predict that the PC will campaign on adding in the stop at Lawrence (and possibly even extending up to Sheppard. Marginally, it would be an extra $500M to $1B*, and it would also brand the subway as a PC project. It is just too late to switch plans again and anyone who campaigns on it** would be vilified for re-opening the debate. I doubt the PC has a preference of Ford over Tory.

* - they likely wouldn't mention it at the campaign, but they may try to find cost savings (i.e. some cut and cover) to reduce the cost. If done, the major disruption would have to be completed before the next election.

** - The only chance of no subway is to deceive during the campaign. Shortly after the campaign, stitch to combined SRT/Eglinton, or separate direct route from STC to Don Valley to Downtown. The first would require paying the current Contractor big bucks to modify the plan and switch it to grade-separated. Another, or same Contractor would have to re-built SRT and likely extend to at least Centennial (just to make it serve more locations that current SSE). If its the latter, the route would have to be chosen quickly. In either case, the EA would have to be super-accelerated. Essentially, any plan would require completion (or at least completion of the disruptive activities) before the next election.

But that the stupidity, superiority and short sightedness of the SLRT Political advocates. They cant see past their own plan and admit there's an issue with transfer. Look where we are today and they still don't get it or care to. Zero compromise and against the will of 99% of Scarborough Politicians are determined to ram it in.

Its all fun and games comparing to a 1-stop subway right now. Its an easy attack in its current form. But come election time there will be atleast another subway option and even Tory's plan will be firmed up. If all they can do is say NO to everything but their own plan, then they deserve this subway too. Really. How far can you keep pushing a rejected design and believing a better outcome is coming? It really can get much worse for everyone.

I cannot understand why anyone is pushing the transfer LRT. It appears to just be an attempt to restore the David Miller legacy with no regard for the divisiveness that it has caused.

 

[crs1026]

In the past year, the City of Toronto has implemented a property tax levy and hotel tax to generate $100 Million annually for infrastructure, without any controversy. The proposed road tolls were supported by Torontonians, and these three tools would've cumulatively generated $300 Million annually, if not for interference from the Wynne Liberals. If Torontonians were as averse to tax increases as you say, these would've generated a lot more controversy.

I'm not so sure, but I don't have precise data handy to back this up. I tried to figure this out from rough sources, and it seemed to show Toronto getting the better deal from Ontario, but I can't claim accuracy.

What we do know - That $300M is far less than Toronto needs each year. It was as far as Toronto Council was willing to stick their toe in the water. And, Council found reasons not to implement any of the taxation options which they already legally have. Always a good reason why those aren't appropriate.
Much as I support road tolls, it's apparent that the only measures that Toronto Council was willing to pass were those that only partly fell on Toronto residents. So, there is evidence of reluctance.

Council's reluctance doesn't prove that the taxpayer is reluctant, although there must be some correlation. Certainly, any increase in anything generates sad stories in the media about people having to choose between food or hydro, or some such statement. This could be overstated - although I fear - Perhaps Toronto really is becoming too expensive for some of its citizens. One wonders if every cost item can actually be held at a level that this segment of the population can afford - maybe current cost levels are not sustainable, in which case we truly are forcing the poor out of the city.

I am eager to be proven wrong on this. But - Scarborough could have all the transit it needs, if Toronto found the money itself. The issue is that Scarborough was sold on the Line 2 extension before anyone looked serious at all the technical challenges. And now these are coming to light. The price isn't rising, it's just being expressed in a more realistic manner. Either there is conviction that the subway is needed, and commitment to cover its cost - or there isn't.

This probably belongs in the Revenue Tools thread - but - since the statement about Torontonians accepting tax increases was made here, my point is just, it's a statement that should not be taken as fact unless the proof is there.

- Paul

 

[OneCity]

Dont kid yourself. Shit could hit the fan with Doug Ford too. You may get your subway extension, but not much else.

Not quite. Dofo will no doubt create unrest for those on the far Left who are actually the ones helping him gain support. But if he does get in Scarborough will be getting a very useful and solid starting point that they can build on at some point deep in the future. The DRL will also be moving ahead for the core. Really not the doomsday it will be portrayed as.

The bigger "shit hit the fan" scenario is if the City council can overturn and force a transit plan upon Scarborough against their elected officials overwhelming vote. That will begin absolute chaos. We have never even seen anything this type of ridiculousness yet, the fallout will be beyond ugly for everyone to a level I cant even fathom.

Id be good if, a Downtown candidate comes forward to connect SCC to Eglinton, Tory gets Eglinton Funded or Ford comes up with a 3-stop and cancels Smartrack. If Ford gets in the Left will bitch and moan alot but it still respects the Scarborough voter and wont start even close to the same level of "shit hit the fan" madness. Not even close.

 

[crs1026]

Not quite. Dofo will no doubt create unrest for those on the far Left

(trim)

If Ford gets in the Left will bitch and moan alot

Here we are, back to trolling. Ranting about "left" or "right" is what one does when one has run out of substantive arguments.

By the way, "Left" means "believes in large government expenditures regardless of fiscal prudence, and happily raises taxes to support major government spending". "Right" means "government is to be small, spends as little as possible, and spends only when money is raised through taxation, with taxation being ruthlessly beaten downwards". Which of these is most willing to fund a Line 2 extension without looking for cheaper alternatives?

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

Steve Munro has an article on the bus routes that would connect with the "new" Line 2 terminal in Scarborough at this link.

 

[OneCity]

Here we are, back to trolling. Ranting about "left" or "right" is what one does when one has run out of substantive arguments.

By the way, "Left" means "believes in large government expenditures regardless of fiscal prudence, and happily raises taxes to support major government spending". "Right" means "government is to be small, spends as little as possible, and spends only when money is raised through taxation, with taxation being ruthlessly beaten downwards". Which of these is most willing to fund a Line 2 extension without looking for cheaper alternatives?

- Paul

I was being sincere


You were close in you definition but failed to realize the Political Right is well known to be pro infrastructure spending (Aside from the like of Harris). And yes Gord Perks wanted to raise our taxes by almost 4.26% I believe. So I am pretty sure im using terms pretty close to where they lean politically. But since its not completely Black and White and you seem to be offended please propose a name for this group that makes you better. Its not trolling by no means, Im very sincere in what I say. You don't have to agree, but its certainly not trolling. Its the closest name I could give this outside group which has chosen to continue adding rocket fuel into a clear divide. Or it atleast should be clear there is a divide by now. And if they didn't notice the transfer locations in this plan are a bit of a problem they are clueless. Instead of working towards a resolution they want to keep fighting to push a rejected line.

This "Select Group" (or whatever you call them) has become quite frugal on Scarborough issues. They have done nothing but say "NO" to everything solution to the issue at hand and they are trying to ram a line in that 99% of Scarborough elected officials don't support. Call them what you want but what they are doing is beyond offensive to me. And I don't see what good promoting this transfer plan does at this point. It could set us back even further than we are now and further than many realize.

 

[steveintoronto]

I predict that the PC will campaign on adding in the stop at Lawrence (and possibly even extending up to Sheppard. Marginally, it would be an extra $500M to $1B*, and it would also brand the subway as a PC project. It is just too late to switch plans again and anyone who campaigns on it** would be vilified for re-opening the debate. I doubt the PC has a preference of Ford over Tory.

* - they likely wouldn't mention it at the campaign, but they may try to find cost savings (i.e. some cut and cover) to reduce the cost. If done, the major disruption would have to be completed before the next election.

** - The only chance of no subway is to deceive during the campaign. Shortly after the campaign, stitch to combined SRT/Eglinton, or separate direct route from STC to Don Valley to Downtown. The first would require paying the current Contractor big bucks to modify the plan and switch it to grade-separated. Another, or same Contractor would have to re-built SRT and likely extend to at least Centennial (just to make it serve more locations that current SSE). If its the latter, the route would have to be chosen quickly. In either case, the EA would have to be super-accelerated. Essentially, any plan would require completion (or at least completion of the disruptive activities) before the next election.

Four reasons why Patrick Brown needs to steer clear of Toronto's plan for road tolls
By: Matt Elliott Metro Published on Mon Dec 12 2016
(Metro's Matt Elliott, formerly of Ford For Toronto, keeps the light shining on Mayor John Tory's city hall.)

Ontario Progressive Conservative leader Patrick Brown made it clear last week: he really, really doesn’t like Mayor John Tory’s plan to put road tolls on the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway.

But I’ve got no time for Brown’s opinion on this, and neither should you.

Why? Let’s count the reasons.

First, for all of Brown’s agitations against highway tolls, he has yet to suggest a workable alternative for funding Toronto transit.

He didn’t promise to increase the provincial operating subsidy to the TTC. He didn’t promise to kick in a few billion dollars for the badly-needed relief line subway.

Instead, he pointed to a recent auditor general report outlining some Liberal government screw-ups, suggesting that there’d be money for transit had these mistakes not been made. But those screw-ups, while frustrating, are in the past and don’t add up to anywhere near enough money to provide predictable, sustainable long-term transit funding.

Second, one of messages the PC party is using to oppose tolls is out of step with reality. Their anti-toll petition website suggests tolls on the Gardiner and DVP are unnecessary because “we’ve already paid for these roads.”

That’s got to be news to every single person at Toronto city hall, many of whom have been working on a $3.6 billion rehabilitation plan for the Gardiner. Over the next few decades, whole pieces of the highway need to be replaced.

That doesn’t sound like a road that’s been paid for.

Third, even though it’s been two decades since the PC’s under Premier Mike Harris nearly destroyed the TTC, I still find it hard to give much transit credibility to the party.

If Brown wants to be seen as someone Toronto can trust on transit, here’s a good first step: acknowledge that Harris’ cut to the TTC operating subsidy and the decision to fill in an under-construction subway tunnel on Eglinton were mistakes.

Fourth, consider this: even if you’re ready to curse Tory’s name for his toll plan — and I have my own misgivings — do you really think the city shouldn’t have the autonomy as a mature level of government to decide whether or not to toll its highways?

The notion that Toronto — a government larger than all but four provinces — should have to ask Queen’s Park permission to raise revenue using city-owned assets is absurd.

It stems from the paternalistic idea that cities aren’t capable of governing themselves.

That’s the biggest problem I have with Brown’s anti-toll act. It’s not enough that provincial politicians have refused to fix Toronto’s transit funding imbalance — now some of them want to stand in the way of Toronto’s plan to try to fix things on our own.

http://www.metronews.ca/views/toron...to-stay-out-of-toronto-road-tolls-debate.html

Please indicate anything directly attributable to Brown that states otherwise.

Edit to Add: All I can find is this, with absolutely no indication of funding or rationale other than to cheer on his own candidate:

Statement from Ontario PC Leader Patrick Brown on Toronto City Council’s Support of the Scarborough Subway
July 13, 2016
Ontario PC Leader Patrick Brown made the following statement today regarding Toronto City Council’s vote to approve next steps in building the Scarborough Subway:

“I applaud Mayor John Tory and City Council for showing leadership, and voting to get shovels in the ground for an infrastructure project that is critical for the people of Scarborough.

With this important step completed, it is now time for action. We must put shovels in the ground to help alleviate congestion for Scarborough commuters and better connect them to jobs and their families. We urge the City of Toronto and the Government of Ontario to move ahead without further delay.

Scarborough’s infrastructure needs have been ignored for far too long. The Ontario PC Party has always been supportive of subways. The people of Scarborough want subways. Our Ontario PC Candidate for Scarborough-Rouge River, Raymond Cho, supports a subway. Unfortunately, Scarborough-Rouge River remains the forgotten district throughout these transit debates. That is why we support the originally announced Subway extension beyond Scarborough Town Centre, to Sheppard Avenue and McCowan Road.

The people of Scarborough are still waiting for the Scarborough subway the Liberals promised them during the by-election in 2013. Now a subway has been delayed until at least 2026. That’s unacceptable. This is a broken promise for transit in Scarborough-Rouge River that I’d like to see fulfilled.

Unfortunately the Wynne Liberal Government is known for going back on their promises. We are hopeful that this government will honour their commitments and ensure the funding they have promised to the City of Toronto so that this project gets underway, and Scarborough finally gets the subway they deserve.”

http://www.ontariopc.com/News/Detai...y-Council’s-Support-of-the-Scarborough-Subway

 

[APTA-2048]

Not quite. Dofo will no doubt create unrest for those on the far Left who are actually the ones helping him gain support. But if he does get in Scarborough will be getting a very useful and solid starting point that they can build on at some point deep in the future. The DRL will also be moving ahead for the core. Really not the doomsday it will be portrayed as.

Your optimism is bordering on fantasy. Doug Ford has not given us any reason to believe he will be different from his brother. Instead, it seems like we can expect:
- Cancelling Crosstown East and/or West LRT.
- "Downtown has enough subways"
- TTC "efficiencies"/"gravy"

This is also worth repeating:

Here we are, back to trolling. Ranting about "left" or "right" is what one does when one has run out of substantive arguments.

If the whole point of your proposal is to stick it to the "left", your plan is probably not the right one.