Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps the current RT corridor could be used as a bus transitway to get to the stations faster.

 

[OneCity]

Your optimism is bordering on fantasy. Doug Ford has not given us any reason to believe he will be different from his brother. Instead, it seems like we can expect:
- Cancelling Crosstown East and/or West LRT.
- "Downtown has enough subways"
- TTC "efficiencies"/"gravy"
.

I agree Ford will be "disruptive". No doubt. I don't want to see him elected but im also not scared if he gets in. I seriously cant imagine our City Hall functioning going forward at all if the Subway is overturned against the will of Scarborough's elected Officials. There is a huge difference between another Ford term compared what will happen very long term to the City if the subway to SCC gets hi-jacked no matter who is Mayor. Should Scarborough Councilors even show up at that point? That may sound nice to some here but It will be insanity.

It also can be easily avoided. If "name that Group of select Councilors" were smart they would compromise here. As they are the ones which will grow Fords base by acting as Dictators. Divisive Politicians like Ford are bi-products of divisions already existing and they feed off of large numbers of apathetic voters who care for nothing more than a Politician to acknowledge them and cause chaos to those ignoring them. Its poorly reported in this City but the appetite for this is quite large and should be somewhat obvious after the least 2 elections.

Im really not overly optimistic. We have a serious problem Politically in this City. Im hopeful the worst doesn't happen. I would say those promoting the same old transfer LRT are in fantasy land thinking they are doing any good right now


That was my point. Period. If people were offended I used "Left" or "Right" I apologize. Not what I was trying to express at all. But I don't think I was really off much in general terms, I do agree the definitions are open to interpretation and it wasn't being used to offend

 

[crs1026]

But since its not completely Black and White and you seem to be offended please propose a name for this group that makes you better. But its not trolling by no means, Im very sincere in what I say. You don't have to agree, but its certainly not trolling. Its the closest name I could give this group who continues to add rocket fuel into a clear divide. Or it atleast should be clear there is a divide by now. And if they didn't notice the transfer locations in this plan are a bit of a problem they are clueless. Instead of working towards a resolution they want to keep fighting to push a rejected line.

The Downtown "Left" (or whatever you call them) has become quite frugal on Scarborough issues. They have done nothing but say "NO" to everything and they are trying to ram a line in that 99% of Scarborough elected officials don't support. Call them what you want but that is beyond offensive to me. And I don't see what good promoting this transfer plan does at this point. It could set us back even further than we are now and further than many realize.

I would just call them the "Line 2 Supporters" versus the "Line 2 Opponents".

There is certainly plenty of political crossover, but nothing is helped by making it about political positions. That just drives a whole bunch of sub-arguments.

I don't hear anyone saying "Scarborough should get nothing". I doubt even Mr Brown will say that. The issue is whether it has to be Line 2, or can it be something else. And does it have to be STC-centric, or can it be good for Scarborough without being all about STC. And if Line 2 cost expands, and absorbs all the available money, what do we do about the other priorities within Scarborough?

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

I predict that the PC will campaign on adding in the stop at Lawrence (and possibly even extending up to Sheppard. Marginally, it would be an extra $500M to $1B*, and it would also brand the subway as a PC project.

What you predict and what evidence there is to buttress that claim appear to be two very different things.

I've been scouring the web to find Brown saying much of anything on anything, save for slogans. I'm starting to think that's the game plan. Keep his mouth shut as much as possible and let Wynne hang herself, which she's very adept at doing.

I just watched the three videos of Brown just released. http://www.metronews.ca/news/toront...ase-three-video-ads-to-build-brand-brown.html He says nothing, albeit says it without stuttering. As far as the SSE is concerned, here's the last relevant quote I can find, and it's not even Brown, it's his intellectual guru Ford, and I've been looking on and off for over half an hour:

"The party's over, Kathleen," Doug said, fantasizing about having the premier's attention. "We're movin' on. Now we're gonna have more members in Toronto. We're gonna bring transparency and accountability at Queen's Park, with our leader Patrick Brown and my good friend Raymond Cho.

"People in Scarborough are gonna be heard on subways!"

https://nowtoronto.com/news/doug-ford-stays-in-the-picture-scarborough-rouge-river/

That was Sept 8, 2016.

So I ask again, please supply *any* quip of information to substantiate your projection.

 

[kEiThZ]

In the past year, the City of Toronto has implemented a property tax levy and hotel tax to generate $100 Million annually for infrastructure, without any controversy. The proposed road tolls were supported by Torontonians, and these three tools would've cumulatively generated $300 Million annually, if not for interference from the Wynne Liberals. If Torontonians were as averse to tax increases as you say, these would've generated a lot more controversy.

You and I both know that's not close to what's required to build the DRL till Eglinton. The city also faces rising infrastructure costs aside from transit.

Moreover, I have no confidence that the quoted price for the DRL will hold, especially after we've seen what happened to a one-stop subway with no significant geotechnical barriers and not much expropriation required. The south of Bloor-Danforth portion will easily be $5 billion, and I'd argue closer to $6-$7 billion given the trends we're seeing in Scarborough. And then we need another $3 - $4 billion to reach Eglinton. And after that, at least another $2-$3 billion to reach Sheppard.

We'll be lucky to get DRL south of Bloor in the next 1-2 decades. Anything north of that will not happen till we're all about to retire.

 

[BurlOak]

What you predict and what evidence there is to buttress that claim appear to be two very different things.

I've been scouring the web to find Brown saying much of anything on anything, save for slogans. I'm starting to think that's the game plan. Keep his mouth shut as much as possible and let Wynne hang herself, which she's very adept at doing.

I just watched the three videos of Brown just released. http://www.metronews.ca/news/toront...ase-three-video-ads-to-build-brand-brown.html He says nothing, albeit says it without stuttering. As far as the SSE is concerned, here's the last relevant quote I can find, and it's not even Brown, it's his intellectual guru Ford, and I've been looking on and off for over half an hour:

https://nowtoronto.com/news/doug-ford-stays-in-the-picture-scarborough-rouge-river/

That was Sept 8, 2016.

So I ask again, please supply *any* quip of information to substantiate your projection.

The complaint about the SSE is the cost and the fact that it has 1 stop.

I have no inside (or outside) info, but it seems to make sense that you correct (partially) these faults. Add in a few stops and that takes the biggest complaint. It now becomes a transit line that serves several areas of Scarborough. Announce that half the cost increase will be covered by the federal infrastructure fund and it looks quite affordable to the province. Politically, it also highlights how the Liberals failed to step up and make this project a success.

 

[OneCity]

I would just call them the "Line 2 Supporters" versus the "Line 2 Opponents".

There is certainly plenty of political crossover, but nothing is helped by making it about political positions. That just drives a whole bunch of sub-arguments.

I don't hear anyone saying "Scarborough should get nothing". I doubt even Mr Brown will say that. The issue is whether it has to be Line 2, or can it be something else. And does it have to be STC-centric, or can it be good for Scarborough without being all about STC. And if Line 2 cost expands, and absorbs all the available money, what do we do about the other priorities within Scarborough?

- Paul

All good. That'll work. Completely wasn't trying to offend & although I don't agree completely with all your points I completely respect your opinion and what you are trying to say by no saying "Scarborough should get nothing". But aside from what Tory is trying to do in this debate Scarborough is being pitted to choose between two separate but both important issues. Just because we are way overdue on expanding doesn't mean most people here are welcoming to cut corners. The transfer to SCC and improved Connection to the core is a huge issue to a hell of a lot of residents especially after what we just witnessed in far less deserving Vaughan Centre with little resistance from the media or anyone really aside from the odd quip. Where was all these endless articles and quotes from "Gurus" then? http://torontoist.com/2017/03/trans...-subway-extension-zero-support-among-experts/. Didn't happen. Different class and a certain media has shown that it has a bias towards any cost impact to "Line 2 Opponents" ridings. They certainly didn't care 1% as much when it was the empty fields of Vaughan. This is felt by many residents and obviously not so obvious to those not on the other end.

It should be very clear by now what Scarborough is saying about how we should start addressing these priorities. Tory has it almost right with the SSE and Eglinton LRT combo but Smarttrack has weakened the subway to one stop and the ST funding could also help Eglinton. So if Tory trips up on Eglinton and isn't re-elected it comes down to whether Scarborough wants a separate local network or to start connecting a proper subway extension and deal with the local in the future. At that point im very confident you'll see massive Scarborough support for Fords plan as local routes can and will be added at some point down the road. If the Malvern bi-election hasnt raised awareness to this im not sure anything will until its reality. Again.

I wouldn't hold my breathe but I would hope the "line 2 Opponent" candidate comes to the election with a plan the removes the transfer otherwise we just going around in circles and without even trying to listen to the Scarborough voter they are just creating greater Political angst over a clearly important issue that shouldn't have been that difficult to compromise on.

I don't share the belief of the current narrative portraying Scarborough voters no longer wanting a subway and in turn they wanting the old LRT instead. While there is certainly good reason to question the 1 stop, the reality is there is other options above the rejected LRT plan and there will be other options come election time for the exact reason this narrative is untrue.. I highly doubt the transfer LRT plan would be at that top of the list in Scarborough. Any polls comparing the two plans are just watering down the reality to fit a narrative. A narrative so one sided it that could actually be helping the opposition.

 

[crs1026]

Scarborough is being pitted to choose between two separate but both important issues. Just because we are way overdue on expanding doesn't mean most people here are welcoming to cut corners. The transfer to SCC and improved Connection to the core is a huge issue to a hell of a lot of residents especially after what we just witnessed in far less deserving Vaughan Centre with little resistance from the media or anyone really aside from the odd quip.

.

Many "Non-supporters" would agree with you on Vaughan, but the question is whether we commit a second wrong by letting the "Supporters" carry the day on the basis of local politicians and MPP's doing exactly the same crap that was done to sell Vaughan. The "supporters" need to have a better argument than that for the decision to be seen as honest.

I am still wondering whether cut and cover construction would save some money and permit the added stations to be restored. If that were so, we could abandon ST altogether and that money would be freed up to keep other parts of the Scarborough plan moving. Tory is the only one standing in the way of that so Council would have to throw him under the bus for this to happen. The Eglinton extension could be where Queens Park could pick up the slack rather than just being pressured to up the ante every time the Line 2 cost rises.

As a west-ender I have some difficulty accepting the argument that the west end of Line 2 should be pushed onwards to Cloverdale or, God forbid, Sherway Gardens, when the east end is left where it is. Never mind arguing the numbers, the map just looks lopsided. And worse if Line 1 to Richmond Hill comes to be.

I am sure that if we suggested reclaiming the SRT materials and build an elevated SRT line from Kipling to Sherway ( an elevated line is quite compatible with the current land use ..... and it would be as ugly a ride as up the SRT through all that industrial wasteland) there would be the very same arguments.... not as good as subway and forces a transfer.

So I can accept that the end points of our two major subway lines should extend to the outer end of our city boundaries - east, west, and north. But the line has to be more impactful than just one stop, and that may mean Scarborough accepting the pain of cut and cover, expropriation, etc. as others did when past lines were built. And by the time we are done, it definitely will entail some sort of Toronto-wide tax increase. Don't think that QP or Ottawa are going to tax someone else to up their ante, it will be Toronto money anyways, might as well be City taxation. Scarborough Councillors need to support this.

And yeah, it would be good to get this agreed to and endorsed before DF gets the chance to pull people in yet another direction.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Doug Ford mayoralty would make Rob's look peaceful and Trump's administration a model of competence.

For one thing, even assuming that the political opposition name a candidate who blows it like Smitherman or Chow, no further evidence surfaces re "that" Globe and Mail article, and Doug does win, no way does Council go along with something like Rob Ford's illegal "day 1 cancellation of Transit City" stuff. It will be battle lines from day one.

Onecity says cancelling Sheppard LRT is going to bring in savings. John Tory has already counted on those, by "deferring" the line.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Many "Non-supporters" would agree with you on Vaughan, but the question is whether we commit a second wrong by letting the "Supporters" carry the day on the basis of local politicians and MPP's doing exactly the same crap that was done to sell Vaughan. The "supporters" need to have a better argument than that for the decision to be seen as honest.

I am still wondering whether cut and cover construction would save some money and permit the added stations to be restored. If that were so, we could abandon ST altogether and that money would be freed up to keep other parts of the Scarborough plan moving. Tory is the only one standing in the way of that so Council would have to throw him under the bus for this to happen. The Eglinton extension could be where Queens Park could pick up the slack rather than just being pressured to up the ante every time the Line 2 cost rises.

As a west-ender I have some difficulty accepting the argument that the west end of Line 2 should be pushed onwards to Cloverdale or, God forbid, Sherway Gardens, when the east end is left where it is. Never mind arguing the numbers, the map just looks lopsided. And worse if Line 1 to Richmond Hill comes to be.

I am sure that if we suggested reclaiming the SRT materials and build an elevated SRT line from Kipling to Sherway ( an elevated line is quite compatible with the current land use ..... and it would be as ugly a ride as up the SRT through all that industrial wasteland) there would be the very same arguments.... not as good as subway and forces a transfer.

So I can accept that the end points of our two major subway lines should extend to the outer end of our city boundaries - east, west, and north. But the line has to be more impactful than just one stop, and that may mean Scarborough accepting the pain of cut and cover, expropriation, etc. as others did when past lines were built. And by the time we are done, it definitely will entail some sort of Toronto-wide tax increase. Don't think that QP or Ottawa are going to tax someone else to up their ante, it will be Toronto money anyways, might as well be City taxation. Scarborough Councillors need to support this.

And yeah, it would be good to get this agreed to and endorsed before DF gets the chance to pull people in yet another direction.

- Paul

That's a fun idea, juggling around the RT materials to where they originally were planned to be built. Scarborough to Etobicoke. Then when that subway is built, Etobicoke to Downtown xD

 

[Tuck]

You and I both know that's not close to what's required to build the DRL till Eglinton. The city also faces rising infrastructure costs aside from transit.

Moreover, I have no confidence that the quoted price for the DRL will hold, especially after we've seen what happened to a one-stop subway with no significant geotechnical barriers and not much expropriation required. The south of Bloor-Danforth portion will easily be $5 billion, and I'd argue closer to $6-$7 billion given the trends we're seeing in Scarborough. And then we need another $3 - $4 billion to reach Eglinton. And after that, at least another $2-$3 billion to reach Sheppard.

We'll be lucky to get DRL south of Bloor in the next 1-2 decades. Anything north of that will not happen till we're all about to retire.

I thought the water table in the area was a significant problem and part of the high cost?

Ultimately, subways are too expensive. Across the board. We can't keep going on like this, years between extensions with so many parts of the city left unfufilled. I know we all like subways but... on this course, Toronto won't have a full rapid transport network by the time my kids have kids.

The answer can't be subways or nothing. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be LRT. Or SkyTrain. It just needs to do the most amount of good to as many people as possible, at an affordable price and in a reasonable time frame. This is something that should have been tackled years ago, and its so frustrating to see the city still dragging its feet.

We've learned nothing.

 

[dowlingm]

Crs1026: you say we can get rid of ST because of the subway to SCC, if stops are added. ST is an RER subsidy by Toronto taxpayers to serve Markham, and just as Oxford Properties has surfaced re SCC, no doubt there will be forces, like York University who are building a campus there, who will mobilize to keep ST alive

 

[ssiguy2]

I find the attitude of the Scarborough councillors and citizens incredibly odd. Why are they intent on supporting a subway for $3.5 billion and yet not get one foot of added rapid transit? For all their talk of city hall's spending largess they seem more than pleased to spend $3.5 billion and years of road disruption for the sole purpose of getting rid of a transfer. Logic dictates, although logic left the room long ago, they would demand the refurbishment of the RT and with those saved billions expand the RT to Malvern and create a SkyTrain from Malvern down Eglinton .

 

[OneCity]

I find the attitude of the Scarborough councillors and citizens incredibly odd. Why are they intent on supporting a subway for $3.5 billion and yet not get one foot of added rapid transit? For all their talk of city hall's spending largess they seem more than pleased to spend $3.5 billion and years of road disruption for the sole purpose of getting rid of a transfer. Logic dictates, although logic left the room long ago, they would demand the refurbishment of the RT and with those saved billions expand the RT to Malvern and create a SkyTrain from Malvern down Eglinton .

Its logical if you look at economics with the highest priority for sure

*I find it odd that some outside Politicians, and some residents think most Scarborough residents like the current RT and believe it integrates SCC well into the City's network.
*I find it odd people think its acceptable to leave Sheppard as a stubway and connect another technology.
*I find It odd people are determined to create Municipal Holy war against the SSE but barley a peep when Vaughan or North York Centre was built
* I find it odd that people think the placement of the transfers are well designed in the broader network

Don't get me wrong a local network will serve one need really well, but that can be addressed in the future. Logic is based on where you live in this City and how important you weight what has been built elsewhere and the convenience & economic parity of building better integrated transit . If Tory could get off Smartrack, add a stop on the subway and fund Eglinton East we would have what I consider a logical plan. Neither the SLRT or 1 stop/Smarttrack hit the mark.

 

[BurlOak]

I find the attitude of the Scarborough councillors and citizens incredibly odd. Why are they intent on supporting a subway for $3.5 billion and yet not get one foot of added rapid transit? For all their talk of city hall's spending largess they seem more than pleased to spend $3.5 billion and years of road disruption for the sole purpose of getting rid of a transfer. Logic dictates, although logic left the room long ago, they would demand the refurbishment of the RT and with those saved billions expand the RT to Malvern and create a SkyTrain from Malvern down Eglinton .

No other options are allowed to be considered. It is subway or transfer LRT.