Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

The only way this could possibly be worse is if Council voted to build the Subway extension, without installing any rails, to save money

In that case, maybe the tunnel can be repurposed as a trunk sewer (a la Coxwell). I mean, with all the imminent Manhattanization that's apparently coming to STC, the extra shit has to go somewhere...

 

[crs1026]

In that case, maybe the tunnel can be repurposed as a trunk sewer (a la Coxwell). I mean, with all the imminent Manhattanization that's apparently coming to STC, the extra shit has to go somewhere...

I was just thinking the same thing and hunting for the diagram of the single-bore subway. There has to be a lot of space down below the rails for something.

Seriously, the cut and cover is near and dear to lots of us. Let's hope it gets raised as this gets debated by EC/Council.... and/or at the public meeting tonight.

- Paul

 

[salsa]

I was just thinking the same thing and hunting for the diagram of the single-bore subway. There has to be a lot of space down below the rails for something.

Seriously, the cut and cover is near and dear to lots of us. Let's hope it gets raised as this gets debated by EC/Council.... and/or at the public meeting tonight.

- Paul

I didn't know there was a public meeting. I probably won't go, but for those who are interested...

 

[Voltz]

I would love to see the expected change in trip times for current users of the Scarborough RT, compared to the Scarborough LRT and Scarborough Subway Extension proposals. Given the following, the subway might very well be slower on average than the LRT (with its forced transfer) might have been.

• Scarborough Centre Station will be the deepest on the network, adding minutes of walking time (the LRT transfer would've been straight across a single platform)
• Headways on the SSE will be 50% of the rest of Line 2
• Commuters who used Lawrence East, Ellesmere, McCowan stations will have significantly longer trip times

The only people who will be better off with the SSE compared to the LRT plan are those who live or work at STC and are going to Kennedy Station or further along the BD Subway. Everyone else, including those who will be stuck on buses coming in from Centennial College, Malvern, or transferring from the Lawrence buses will be worse off.

Not to mention those who would have already be better off with the Sheppard LRT that was cancelled because of this Subway BS, and the fact that this subway will be open years later than the LRT would have.

 

[sixrings]

The only people who will be better off with the SSE compared to the LRT plan are those who live or work at STC and are going to Kennedy Station or further along the BD Subway. Everyone else, including those who will be stuck on buses coming in from Centennial College, Malvern, or transferring from the Lawrence buses will be worse off.

Not to mention those who would have already be better off with the Sheppard LRT that was cancelled because of this Subway BS, and the fact that this subway will be open years later than the LRT would have.

hey man sheppard was supposed to open in 2014 and its 2017 but dont bring that up. Subways Subways Subways

 

[Voltz]

hey man sheppard was supposed to open in 2014 and its 2017 but dont bring that up. Subways Subways Subways

It really is just infuriating to think of just how much damage Subways have done to transit in Toronto. And it is further infuriating that some are getting excited about the prospect of the Sheppard Subway being promised in the next election, seriously are people of this forum that ignorant of transit history in this city to not see how much further damage that would do? It would set us back another two decades.

Although it was not because of Subways, If McGuinty and Wynn had not cancelled and delayed Transit City back in 2010 there would already be a rapid transit line built and running right now to the Malvern Town Centre where residents are currently and will be for a very long time stuck in a transit waste land.

That delay allowed that crack head whom the only thing he know about transit was how to say the work Subways three times in a row to screw the rest of us.

 

[Cobra]

It really is just infuriating to think of just how much damage Subways have done to transit in Toronto.

Politics and infinite procrastination on transit, not subways

And it is further infuriating that some are getting excited about the prospect of the Sheppard Subway being promised in the next election, seriously are people that ignorant of transit history in this city to not see how much further damage that would do? It would set us back another two decades.

Politicians are doing the damage, not people

Although it was not because of Subways, If McGuinty and Wynn had not cancelled and delayed Transit City back in 2010 there would already be a rapid transit line built and running right now to the Malvern Town Centre where residents are currently and will be for a very long time stuck in a transit waste land.

Transit City was delayed and gutted because the original cost was pure BS as well

That delay allowed that crack head whom the only thing he know about transit was how to say the work Subways three times in a row to screw the rest of us.

Yet, the Scarborough issue would have been solved if the MOU wasn't reversed. LRT would be on the SRT corridor. Also, if the city and the TTC hadn't shamefully abandoned and neglected the SRT all these years, we'd be talking MK III trains to Malvern, not digging subways

It's not just black and white here. Politics and neglect did the lion share of the damage, not people who got jerked around all these years caught in the crossfire of politicians going to war with competing plans, so the people said "screw all of you, we want subways". I don't agree with this plan which is pure insanity, but I get where the people's frustration came from.

Instead of complaining about the people and subways, we should unite and pressure city hall to fix this. Bring the cost down and go back to the 3 stop subway.

 

[coopEng]

I was just thinking the same thing and hunting for the diagram of the single-bore subway. There has to be a lot of space down below the rails for something.

Seriously, the cut and cover is near and dear to lots of us. Let's hope it gets raised as this gets debated by EC/Council.... and/or at the public meeting tonight.

- Paul

Cut and cover sounds like a grand way to save money, but based on the estimates tunneling is approximately 40% of the total cost. Are we assuming that cut and cover is 20%, 30%, 40% less expensive than tunneling? I would highly doubt that, labour was a lot cheaper when the original lines were dug cut and cover and the reality is there wasn't much of an alternative. If you think people are freaking out about the plans now, wait until someone tells them there will be a swatch of Scarborough ripped up (and likely a lot of property demolition) to build this thing. Even at a 30% savings vs tunnelling (which i doubt its anywhere near that) you are looking at a total project savings of about 10% - not much when the price goes up every report.

 

[Cobra]

Cut and cover sounds like a grand way to save money, but based on the estimates tunneling is approximately 40% of the total cost. Are we assuming that cut and cover is 20%, 30%, 40% less expensive than tunneling? I would highly doubt that, labour was a lot cheaper when the original lines were dug cut and cover and the reality is there wasn't much of an alternative. If you think people are freaking out about the plans now, wait until someone tells them there will be a swatch of Scarborough ripped up (and likely a lot of property demolition) to build this thing. Even at a 30% savings vs tunnelling (which i doubt its anywhere near that) you are looking at a total project savings of about 10% - not much when the price goes up every report.

No excuses for not considering elevating the line either

 

[Voltz]

Transit City was delayed and gutted because the original cost was pure BS as well


Yet, the Scarborough issue would have been solved if the MOU wasn't reversed. LRT would be on the SRT corridor. Also, if the city and the TTC hadn't shamefully abandoned and neglected the SRT all these years, we'd be talking MK III trains to Malvern, not digging subways

It's not just black and white here

It was delayed and cancelled to save money, the cost estimates used when the lines were funded were not that far off, the shortening of the lines were mainly because of the inflationary cost increases caused by the delays.

That MOU would have meant no transit past the STC, not transit on Sheppard or Finch, and the continuation of Sheppard Subway politicking.

 

[coopEng]

No excuses for not considering elevating the line either

I agree it could have been studied, but the same debate about SRT being above ground and "we" want the same type of transit in other parts of the City would have killed the idea. Also, to get the subway from below Kennedy Station up and above street level would be a challenge (i.e. take some distance to do) and then find a suitable route... but its really a non-starter it seems

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I agree it could have been studied, but the same debate about SRT being above ground and "we" want the same type of transit in other parts of the City would have killed the idea. Also, to get the subway from below Kennedy Station up and above street level would be a challenge (i.e. take some distance to do) and then find a suitable route... but its really a non-starter it seems

Indeed. The EA process alone, and the noise around it would have killed the project politically.

It was delayed and cancelled to save money, the cost estimates used when the lines were funded were not that far off, the shortening of the lines were mainly because of the inflationary cost increases caused by the delays.

That MOU would have meant no transit past the STC, not transit on Sheppard or Finch, and the continuation of Sheppard Subway politicking.

The MOU basically said that Sheppard Extension as a subway will be the responsibility of the city. Which meant it wasn't going to happen in that envelope.

AoD

 

[Cobra]

It was delayed and cancelled to save money, the cost estimates used when the lines were funded were not that far off, the shortening of the lines were mainly because of the inflationary cost increases caused by the delays.

Not that far off? The thing got gutted for a reason. Province didn't have the money to cover the exploding costs and that was before the delays.

That MOU would have meant no transit past the STC, not transit on Sheppard or Finch, and the continuation of Sheppard Subway politicking.

Many feels that Eglinton should have been 100% grade separated. The MOU was a good plan. Toronto showing the willingness to pay for transit was a matter of time which would have helped pay for Finch. We're raising $1B for the Scarborough subway. Imagine if we took the MOU that was 100% covered by Queen's Park instead? That $1B would have been near to pay for Finch by ourselves and the whole Scarborough fiasco put to bed once and for all

If you are to build rapid transit, do it right, not half ass it

 

[sixrings]

Nothing surprises me anymore in the 6

I don't know anymore. Wynne just cut hydro bills by 25% out of thin hair. Wouldn't be surprised that she would build Sheppard and go back to the 3 stop plan to save her in the next election by just throwing cash at it.

"Subways subways subways...I'm the best mayor ever...there is only one tax payer." guess we should forget the last quote

 

[sixrings]

. If you are to build rapid transit, do it right, not half ass it

so you have adopted the Mercedes approach. Mercedes-Benz New Global Slogan: The Best or Nothing. In fact what I think is more realistic is delay delay delay and build nothing at all.