Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

Double-tracking the line isn't feasible, and the line is used as the main railway between Toronto and the West Coast so Go Trains can't get priority north of Old Cummer station.

Build new tracks, I don't buy the subway argument and if it's absolutely necessary, DRL makes more sense than Yonge

 

[smallspy]

It can't be argued its orphaned technology....Innovia's are in service in Vancouver, Detroit, New York (JFK AirTrain), Bejing and Seoul.

That's no different than the TR's sharing some components with the rest of Bombardier's Movias.

I'd argue that the lifecycle (capital and maintenance) cost of putting a separate rolling stock on existing infrastructure would be less expensive than new (but standardized) rolling stock on NEW infrastructure.

The problem is that the City and TTC don't make capital decisions based on comparative lifecycle costing of both infrastructure and rolling stock. If you matched the LRTs on Eglinton, they're much heavier because they're designed for mixed traffic...over designed for a completed grade separated line like Line 3.

In Toronto, it would be an orphan technology. The TTC can't in the normal course of use just go to Detroit or Vancouver and borrow their spare parts. They have needed to build up their spare parts inventory and maintenance knowledge. They need to purchase many of the replacement parts, and certainly the rolling stock, from Bombardier and only Bombardier. Converting the line to LRT or subway would allow equipment that will already be known to all of the staff, and with parts that are already in stock. Rolling stock can be purchased from any number of different suppliers.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It's funny how people loses their minds when line 1 or 2 are shutdown for a few minutes or hours...let alone a day, yet Scarborough losing the RT for years is just "pain". Just an observation

I did not mean it like that. I just meant it would get built faster this way.

Let's be fair here - it's only comparable if you are experiencing the same level of chaos with post-shutdown replacement buses that might or might not be available. You know exactly what that means.

AoD

You're right on that, we should elevate the damn thing on Eglinton East then north on McCowan Rd.

Sadly that boat has sailed too, and you know someone is going to say that it isn't a subway. This option is also not a painless one in terms of shutdown either.

AoD

It has not. Here's whats going to happen if Wynne loses, it will be elevated or no subway. Brown will cancel if it costs too much.

That's a lie. The peak hour ridership is 19,200 based on forecasted 2031 demand. There's no such thing as a "day 1" forecast for any transit line, since nobody knows when "day 1" would be.



It is. What's your point? I'm not saying the heavy-rail Relief Line shouldn't be built. I'm saying it's not a substitute for connecting the Yonge subway with the Highway 7 BRT.



Double-tracking the line isn't feasible, and the line is used as the main railway between Toronto and the West Coast so Go Trains can't get priority north of Old Cummer station.

You asserted this:



Clearly you have no trouble commenting on ridership (uncited) as if it is reality. To accuse someone of lying on the basis of the Day 1 reference when you are doing something pretty much along similar lines sounds unfair to me.

AoD

Either both Yonge and Sheppard should not be built, or they should.

If City Hall had more political flair, you make the subway elevated on those arteries and make it clear that they are to expect noises during construction and operations and McCowan would ne to be rezoned to mid to highrises facing the train.

Perhaps they'd soften their stance on the RT corridor or LRT but it was an equally huge mistake to go straight to tunneling.

Build new tracks, I don't buy the subway argument and if it's absolutely necessary, DRL makes more sense than Yonge

The line can be double tracked for 1.5 billion, we talked about it earlier with drum. Double tracking would also provide much more capacity and a faster ride. They were also planning to do it before as well.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I wish they would also do something for Newmarket, like move mulock up, because there is no way Newmarket can fit another track right now.

 

[amnesiajune]

Clearly you have no trouble commenting on ridership (uncited) as if it is reality.

The ridership is in the link that was posted (and incorrectly quoted) by TigerMaster. See page 31 - 19,200 for AM inbound peak hour in 2031.

 

[ssiguy2]

I am getting so sick of this SkyTrain is proprietary crap I am going to puke. Whether you absolutely LOVE SkyTrain or detest it with a passion I don't care but it is NOT proprietary. Again, it is NOT proprietary. Did I mention yet that SkyTrain is NOT proprietary? When Toronto built the SRT is was proprietary under Bombardier but in case the TTC missed it that was 35 years ago. Back then a low-floor streetcar would have been proprietary but then so was the Sony cassette player.

Today LIM is not only common but being built increasingly more frequently as it is ideal for automated operation which many systems are converting to. So, here's the list.............. Tokyo, Toei, Osaka, Yokohama, Kobe, Sendai, Fukuoka, Beijing, Yongin, Guangzhou, Kuala Lumpur Metro systems as well as New York, Detroit, and of course, Vancouver. There are several LIM train/Metro manufacturers in China as well as the big boys of Kawasaki, Hitachi, and Bombardier coming in all shapes and sizes. Several of those cities get decent amounts of snow and are just as cold in the winter as Toronto so that shoots that excuse all to hell. As I write this it is -1C in Beijing.

Now unless Toronto is going to have the audacity of saying that China, Japan, and S.Korea know far less about urban transit than Toronto I politely suggest that this excuse of the SRT being proprietary come to a screeching halt. The failure of the SRT has NOTHING to do with the technology and EVERYTHING to do with the TTC letting it rot into the ground.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The ridership is in the link that was posted (and incorrectly quoted) by TigerMaster. See page 31 - 19,200 for AM inbound peak hour in 2031.

Let me line it all up, bolded assertion with commentary in parenthesis/italics.

amensiajune said:
The long Relief Line's ridership is already barely above LRT capacity (which is when? 2031? Day 1?). You're not going to find many new users by extending it to Seneca College and the industrial areas along the 404.

TheTigerMaster said:
Relief Line Long has peak hour/point ridership of 20,000 pphpd on Day 1 (used figure for 2031). It'll have the same ridership as the Yonge Line. LRT capacity is 15,000 pphpd.

amnesiajune said:
That's a lie. The peak hour ridership is 19,200 based on forecasted 2031 demand. There's no such thing as a "day 1" forecast for any transit line, since nobody knows when "day 1" would be.

So, you claimed DRL long is barely above LRT capacity (it happened already?), provided no figure, he responded with 20K on "Day 1", cited a document that indicated is projected to be 19.2K in 2031, and we haven't even approved construction yet in 2017 (much less DRL long). And you are going to nail him for quoting a figure with a year on it when you made an assertion about ridership with no backup, year or otherwise, calling it barely above LRT capacity, and then call someone lying? It maybe inexact, but it is certainly a more backed up assertion of a "fact" that "Long DRL ridership is barely above LRT capacity".

AoD

 

[micheal_can]

So, lets say Canada and Toronto was flush with cash.
Would extending Line 2 to STC make sense?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

So, lets say Canada and Toronto was flush with cash.
Would extending Line 2 to STC make sense?

Yes, though not as a one stop form as proposed.

AoD

 

[micheal_can]

Yes, though not as a one stop form as proposed.

AoD

So then it is not about what is good for the city and transit. It is about how much it will cost.

And that is why we are replacing the SRT. We did not do what was good for the city, we did what was good for the bottom line.

 

[amnesiajune]

The failure of the SRT has NOTHING to do with the technology and EVERYTHING to do with the TTC letting it rot into the ground.

It's not proprietary, it's just a small fleet that's very different from the rest of the transit system, which makes it harder and more expensive to maintain.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

So then it is not about what is good for the city and transit. It is about how much it will cost.

And that is why we are replacing the SRT. We did not do what was good for the city, we did what was good for the bottom line.

That's a false dichotomy, whereby you assert that there are no gradations of "good", nor gradations of "cost effectiveness". If you think that cost doesn't matter, maybe you can suggest that a certain subset of the population take up the full cost of the line and see how far one goes with it?

AoD

 

[Cobra]

It's not proprietary, it's just a small fleet that's very different from the rest of the transit system, which makes it harder and more expensive to maintain.

There's no excuses here. City Hall and the TTC neglected the RT...If they did their jobs, we'd be extending the RT deeper into Scarborough instead of starting from scratch...even possibly having Eglinton using the same technology

 

[amnesiajune]

There's no excuses here. City Hall and the TTC neglected the RT...If they did their jobs, we'd be extending the RT deeper into Scarborough instead of starting from scratch...even possibly having Eglinton using the same technology

Well originally the same technology was going to be used for the DRL. If that had happened we'd be having a very different discussion - not so much because of its widespread use, but because it wouldn't be seen as a cheaply-built subway extension for the poor parts of the city.

 

[salsa]

There's no political appetite to shutdown the SRT for over 3-4 years and put all those people in shuttle buses the entire time with the TTC stuck with the inflated costs (money they clearly don't have). So can we stop with the speculation over using the SRT Corridor?

At least the big bend is out but reality check...that subway is happening. Can we go back to "planning, design" mode?

I hate the idea that infrastructure decisions should be designed based on construction impact rather than what's the best alignment for the city, especially when it's at a higher cost. Should we also cancel plans to build the relief line on Queen Street just because streetcars will be affected? What about all the Eglinton bus riders who are grinding through horrible traffic because of the Crosstown? Like it or not, building transit involves some inconvenience. But in the end none of that will matter anymore and the benefits will last a lifetime.

Scarborough is getting a one stop subway at an extremely high cost because of their incredibly short sighted fixation on avoiding an SRT shutdown. You people consider subways to be a 100 year investment yet somehow this is more important. One day a lot of people will look back and think "we've could have done better", "hey it would have been nice if we had a Lawrence stop as well". I hope it was worth it.