News   Sep 18, 2024
 190     0 
News   Sep 18, 2024
 386     1 
News   Sep 18, 2024
 695     1 

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

You know full well that it would never be comparable to the SRT, not even close...and all you need is 1 jackass blocking the lanes to screw up the whole bus line as we witness constantly throughout the city

Actually I don't know - you are looking at replicating the SRT function as a line - I am thinking of reorganizing the interim system in a way that re-distributes the load during the critical rush period. The fact is - nobody really looked at how you can design an interim system because they have already rejected the notion of reusing that alignment.

AoD
 
Actually I don't know - you are looking at replicating the SRT function as a line - I am thinking of reorganizing the interim system in a way that re-distributes the load during the critical rush period. The fact is - nobody really looked at how you can design an interim system because they have already rejected the notion of reusing that alignment.

AoD

I understand you but I'm being skeptical, not because I don't think you make valuable points but because Andy Byford and the TTC themselves said on record that it would be a logistic nightmare driving the TTC operation costs higher and that they had little confidence they could pull off a prolonged shuttle service satisfactory to the clients. He was barely hiding his fear of being asked of making it happened. It was a driving argument that had even Pro-LRT councillors to back the subway.

Can it be done? Of course it can, but it would be hell.
 
I don't oppose it at all. It makes more sense but I also understand why they won't use it. They don't want to shutdown the RT for years and stuffing all theses people in buses.

Actually, elevating the subway on McCowan Rd should have been explored.

I wonder how much 24/7 OT a billion or two nets you.

AoD


Speeding up construction has a substantial costs to it. Plus it would be a cost and logistic nightmare for the city and the TTC. If the costs explodes (because this is Toronto) and the project isn't on time, you're screwing a lot of people for at least 2 years with the price difference shrinking rapidly. That's why you and I aren't in politics, no sane politician would even entertain the idea of doing that

More substantial than a 2B premium? I mean, are we so afraid of inconveniences and fearful of mismanaging a project that is for crying out loud, not at all surprising from a geotechnical perspective on a pre-existing alignment that we are willing to pay double for an inferior and unknown solution? You are right though, that's why we are still *planning* this sucker at this point, and we don't even know what the chosen route (much less what the price of the chosen route is), nevermind the woodlot protest and the big bend jokes. Again, self-interest at work.

AoD
The SRT corridor without a doubt is the best option. Of course Scarborough would feel pain from the SRT shutting down, but it would save money and and there is always construction pain when doing infrastructure projects, this is no different.

The Yonge extension actually has a lot of ridership to support it. The Steeles - Highway 7 segment on its own would have more ridership than the entire Sheppard - Downtown "long" Relief Line.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...ts_Case-Yonge_North_Subway_Extension_2013.pdf
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20150625/2015-06-25_Yonge_Relief_Network_Study.pdf

I'm of the very firm opinion that line should end at Steeles.

People in Montreal are now joking that the only way they can use the Metro is buy moving to Laval. The service is pure crap once the trains enters Montreal Island from Laval and short-turning trains doesn't provide any relief. The idea of thinking that copying Montreal is a good idea is incomprehensible to me

GO RER, LRT to Vaughan subway or DRL Long to Richmond Hill makes more sense. Yonge cannot take anymore of this
For me it's simple. Either all of these suburban extensions should be done or none of them.

Should we start referring to the Scarborough subway as the "Duguid Subway"?
It's an orphan within the Toronto subway system. That's bad because it increases costs - parts, facilities, maintenance, and so on are a lot more expensive when you can't buy them en masse. Look at the bus system as an example. There are only two buses used - the Orion VII and the NovaBus LFS. There are minor variations within the fleet but the platforms are all one or the other, and each garage only handles a few different buses rather than an assortment of the fleet. Now imagine if the TTC bought 28 VanHool buses from Belgium, and built an entire garage just to service that 1% of the bus fleet. It would be way more expensive on a per-bus basis to service those, since they need unique parts, segregated facilities and unique knowledge from staff. This is also why every TTC subway car has been built by the same company (Hawker Siddeley became UTDC, which became Bombardier Transportation) for more than 50 years.



Only after the Eglinton subway is called the "Miller Express" and one of the stops is named after the shortest political campaign ever.
Dugid is currently pushing for Sheppard east behind the scenes. It's the Scarborough Caucus at Queens Park which is currently driving these plans.
 
Why? Don Mills/Leslie would be useless. The long Relief Line's ridership is already barely above LRT capacity. You're not going to find many new users by extending it to Seneca College and the industrial areas along the 404.

???? Relief Line Long has peak hour/point ridership of 20,000 pphpd on Day 1. It'll have the same ridership as the Yonge Line. LRT capacity is 15,000 pphpd.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20150625/2015-06-25_Yonge_Relief_Network_Study.pdf
 
I understand you but I'm being skeptical, not because I don't think you make valuable points but because Andy Byford and the TTC themselves said on record that it would be a logistic nightmare driving the TTC operation costs higher and that had little confident they could pull off a prolonged shuttle service satisfactory to the clients. He was barely hiding his fear of being asked of making it happened. It was a driving argument that had even Pro-LRT councillors to back the subway.

Everything is a logistical nightmare, and yes it will have a cost attached to it - but like I've said before, is that cost 2B (that's just monetary cost, what of opportunity cost of improved services not rendered earlier?) We have developed such a fear of experimentation, potentially offending residents, politicians, that we are basically willing to chose higher cost, poorer outcomes and delays in services coming online.

AoD
 
Last edited:
The SRT corridor without a doubt is the best option. Of course Scarborough would feel pain from the SRT shutting down, but it would save money and and there is always construction pain when doing infrastructure projects, this is no different.

It's funny how people loses their minds when line 1 or 2 are shutdown for a few minutes or hours...let alone a day, yet Scarborough losing the RT for years is just "pain". Just an observation
 
It's funny how people loses their minds when line 1 or 2 are shutdown for a few minutes or hours...let alone a day, yet Scarborough losing the RT for years is just "pain". Just an observation

Let's be fair here - it's only comparable if you are experiencing the same level of chaos with post-shutdown replacement buses that might or might not be available. You know exactly what that means.

AoD
 
You're right on that, we should elevate the damn thing on Eglinton East then north on McCowan Rd.

Sadly that boat has sailed too, and you know someone is going to say that it isn't a subway. This option is also not a painless one in terms of shutdown either.

AoD
 
Relief Line Long has peak hour/point ridership of 20,000 pphpd on Day 1. It'll have the same ridership as the Yonge Line. LRT capacity is 15,000 pphpd.

That's a lie. The peak hour ridership is 19,200 based on forecasted 2031 demand. There's no such thing as a "day 1" forecast for any transit line, since nobody knows when "day 1" would be.

Well, it isn't like peak ridership of the BD extension is barely above LRT capacity, right?

It is. What's your point? I'm not saying the heavy-rail Relief Line shouldn't be built. I'm saying it's not a substitute for connecting the Yonge subway with the Highway 7 BRT.

GO RER is all Richmond Hill needs.

Double-tracking the line isn't feasible, and the line is used as the main railway between Toronto and the West Coast so Go Trains can't get priority north of Old Cummer station.
 
I wonder how much 24/7 OT a billion or two nets you.

AoD

Meaning money can speed construction. The good old "fast, good and cheap" - two out of the three adage.

AoD

Speeding up construction has a substantial costs to it. Plus it would be a cost and logistic nightmare for the city and the TTC. If the costs explodes (because this is Toronto) and the project isn't on time, you're screwing a lot of people for at least 2 years with the price difference shrinking rapidly. That's why you and I aren't in politics, no sane politician would even entertain the idea of doing that

What I find kind of interesting, the TTC did a report to look at how subway construction could be made cheaper, comparing practices in Spain to here, and they found that 24/7 construction was actually more efficient, since it avoided the unnecessary work of restarting/setting up and shutting down at the beginning/end of each day. Of course, there are noise bylaws here that may apply, depending on if there are residents near the construction.

I'm of the very firm opinion that line should end at Steeles.

People in Montreal are now joking that the only way they can use the Metro is buy moving to Laval. The service is pure crap once the trains enters Montreal Island from Laval and short-turning trains doesn't provide any relief. The idea of thinking that copying Montreal is a good idea is incomprehensible to me

GO RER, LRT to Vaughan subway or DRL Long to Richmond Hill makes more sense. Yonge cannot take anymore of this

Montreal will have relief when more of the Azur (open gangway) cars arrive and they can increase the number of rush hour trains. Yonge is already operating entirely on TR trains, so Yonge is already further on the end of the rope than Montreal.
 
That's a lie. The peak hour ridership is 19,200 based on forecasted 2031 demand. There's no such thing as a "day 1" forecast for any transit line, since nobody knows when "day 1" would be.

You asserted this:

The long Relief Line's ridership is already barely above LRT capacity. You're not going to find many new users by extending it to Seneca College and the industrial areas along the 404.

Clearly you have no trouble commenting on ridership (uncited) as if it is reality. To accuse someone of lying on the basis of the Day 1 reference when you are doing something pretty much along similar lines sounds unfair to me.

AoD
 
Last edited:
Sadly that boat has sailed too, and you know someone is going to say that it isn't a subway. This option is also not a painless one in terms of shutdown either.

AoD
If City Hall had more political flair, you make the subway elevated on those arteries and make it clear that they are to expect noises during construction and operations and McCowan would ne to be rezoned to mid to highrises facing the train.

Perhaps they'd soften their stance on the RT corridor or LRT but it was an equally huge mistake to go straight to tunneling.
 
If City Hall had more political flair, you make the subway elevated on those arteries and make it clear that they are to expect noises during construction and operations and McCowan would ne to be rezoned to mid to highrises facing the train.

Perhaps they'd soften their stance on the RT corridor or LRT but it was an equally huge mistake to go straight to tunneling.

I have my doubts given the woodlot kerfuffle. Like honestly, you can't even use it or expropriate homes for staging!

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...t-threatened-by-scarborough-subway-plans.html

AoD
 

Back
Top