Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

@Cobra, I have spend a lot of years working in the suburbs and only recently was I able to get what I've always wanted, which is to work downtown. I hated those places. Everyday I couldn't wait to go back home as soon as the work day ended. Not anymore. My commute no longer takes well over an hour; now it's just a short bus ride to the subway from the north end of the city. When the weather was better I cycled to work everyday, sometimes not spending even a dime on TTC fares for weeks at a time. During lunch break I have hundreds of places to choose from like Dundas Square, Queen St West or College Park, and when that's not satisfying enough I could bike 5 or 10 minutes to further away places like Bloor, or Bathurst Street. The same is true for shopping. In addition to all that, I really enjoy the street life, the interesting architecture, and the various events that are always happening at Nathan Philips Square or other places.

Good for you; you found your perfect job location. But you can't assume that everybody has same preferences.

I used to work in downtown, and it wasn't bad. But for the last few years, I work in North York and find it much more convenient because my commute is shorter and the subway is not nearly as crowded. Those two factors are more important for me than the street life.

I am so goddamn sick and tired of Scarborough's ongoing transit clusterfk and their crop of self-serving politicians who are still unable to put forward a credible case for the subway aside from getting re-elected. If the private sector couldn't be convinced to construct a single commercial development for many, many years, then maybe this whole Scarborough Centre thing simply ain't working out. So to anyone who suggests that the jobs of people like me should be shipped out to Scarborough for the sake of propping up Glen Debaeremaeker's development dreams which have proven to be more fanciful than realistic...I'm sorry but I want nothing to do with any of this.

If the residents did not regard that subway as something quite important for them, then the said politicians would not be pushing for the subway as it would not improve their chances to get re-elected.

I wish you to keep your downtown job and not having to relocate to Scarborough or anywhere. But looking at the big picture, more than a few people will find such a relocation desirable for themselves.

 

[salsa]

Subway deniers are getting so desperate in their failed attempts to stop SSE that they jeer at this perfectly reasonable plan.

It might seem reasonable to you, but the argument that the supporters have put forward in favour of this plan is that relocating jobs to Scarborough will somehow attract the private sector to do the same. That is not gonna work:

This is stupid - the private sector don't base their locational decisions on whether city employees are around - and if you need that to "demonstrate and improve confidence", perhaps your case is poor in the first place.

 

[salsa]

Good for you; you found your perfect job location. But you can't assume that everybody has same preferences.

I used to work in downtown, and it wasn't bad. But for the last few years, I work in North York and find it much more convenient because my commute is shorter and the subway is not nearly as crowded. Those two factors are more important for me than the street life.

But looking at the big picture, more than a few people will find such a relocation desirable for themselves.

Sure, if they live in the East end (as you pointed out). I wonder how many west end residents would agree with that. Or people who rely on GO transit. For every person that this would benefit, somebody else will be mightily inconvenienced.

For the record, I would be just as happy to work in North York, if it's on Yonge St. My commute would be even easier. Whereas to get to Scarborough Centre I would have to take a bus, subway, and then another bus. Cycling is not an option as the route is too distant, hilly, and unsafe. I hope you also realize that most office buildings in Scarborough Centre are not well served by the RT to begin with, and will be even less so with the one stop subway. A lot of people may face a 15-20 minute walk, or have to transfer to a bus.

 

[sixrings]

So if you move 3000 jobs to STC from downtown how many of those people will drive to work vs taking transit. If its anything like my wifes suburban work then a large percentage will drive. If 50% drive then we are talking about 1500 riders or 3000 trips daily. If 66% drive then we are down to 1000 transit riders and only 2000 trips a day. Either way how does this even remotely justify a transit project that will cost billions more than its alternative. I guess Coffey is gone so now someone else has to pick up the Scarborough deserves a subway mantle.

 

[amnesiajune]

I hope you also realize that most office buildings in Scarborough Centre are not well served by the RT to begin with, and will be even less so with the one stop subway. A lot of people may face a 15-20 minute walk, or have to transfer to a bus.

That's the argument against the replacement LRT - the one stop subway doesn't put everything at walking distance from a stop, but it creates a better transit hub for Scarborough, while also getting rid of a transfer at Kennedy and four redundant stops that hardly anyone uses. From Scarborough Centre you can build a much more useful LRT line out to Centennial College and Malvern

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That's the argument against the replacement LRT - the one stop subway doesn't put everything at walking distance from a stop, but it creates a better transit hub for Scarborough, while also getting rid of a transfer at Kennedy and four redundant stops that hardly anyone uses. From Scarborough Centre you can build a much more useful LRT line out to Centennial College and Malvern

Not that it is time to reopen the whole mess, but one conveniently forgotten that replacement RT is supposed to go to Centennial - instead of the song and dance that is how the savings from the one-stop subway is supposed to allow building the Malvern line (which in the current grand scheme of backpedalling, have how much chance of happening?)

AoD

 

[amnesiajune]

Not that it is time to reopen the whole mess, but one conveniently forgotten that replacement RT is supposed to go to Centennial - instead of the song and dance that is how the savings from the subway is supposed to allow building the Malvern line.

I get that, but the replacement RT would get a lot more usage if it didn't have three useless stops in the middle of industrial parks and the McCowan stop that's closer on foot than on the train. That's one of the SRT's biggest flaws right now. A 6 km trip ends up taking 12+ minutes instead of the 5-6 minutes that it would take with a direct subway or LRT connection.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I get that, but the replacement RT would get a lot more usage if it didn't have three useless stops in the middle of industrial parks and the McCowan stop that's closer on foot than on the train. That's one of the SRT's biggest flaws right now. A 6 km trip ends up taking 12+ minutes instead of the 5-6 minutes that it would take with a direct subway or LRT connection.

A few stops (at 30s each) don't add 6 minutes to travel time. The issue with SRT has less to do with travel time per se but system unreliability - but putting that aside and using your assertion - the question is, as currently arranged right now, do you think shaving 6 minutes off a trip is worth 3 billion?

The issue isn't bringing subway to STC - it is how it is proposed. Highest cost alignment for an extremely limited amount of utility.

AoD

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

So if you move 3000 jobs to STC from downtown how many of those people will drive to work vs taking transit. If its anything like my wifes suburban work then a large percentage will drive. If 50% drive then we are talking about 1500 riders or 3000 trips daily. If 66% drive then we are down to 1000 transit riders and only 2000 trips a day. Either way how does this even remotely justify a transit project that will cost billions more than its alternative. I guess Coffey is gone so now someone else has to pick up the Scarborough deserves a subway mantle.

Exactly.

I don't think people fully realize the full scope of relocating an office to the suburbs means. My dad's company is relocating an office from Scarborough (this one is on Eglinton, not STC. There isn't much office at STC.) to Markham, and half of people are either looking to jump to the downtown office or are looking for new jobs with shorter commute. Other people are looking to ditch transit and start dusting off their car in preparation for the move.

This plan to relocate government jobs to STC will do 3 things:

1. Force qualified people to quit, replacing them with less qualified people.
2. Decrease productivity as these workers are no longer in the innovation hub that is downtown Toronto. They are not stepping stones away from other companies they do business with on a day-to-day basis with.
3. It will increase automobile dependency. The exact opposite of what we want, which is to increase transit mode share.

 

[amnesiajune]

A few stops (at 30s each) don't add 6 minutes to travel time.

Somehow, a train that regularly travels at 60+ km/h between stations only averages 28.5 km/h. If it's not because of the four useless stops, I don't know what it is.

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2015_01_04.pdf

The issue with SRT has less to do with travel time per se but system unreliability - the question is, as currently arranged right now, do you think shaving 6 minutes off a trip is worth 3 billion?

It doesn't cost 3 billion. The subway costs, at most, $1 billion more than the LRT (and yes, I'm aware that the LRT is a billion dollars cheaper if it's built in 48 months, but we all know that isn't gonna happen).

If we're doing a head-to-head comparison, here's what I think: The ideal solution would be an LRT that goes all the way from Kennedy to Morningside Heights, and doesn't stop in between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy. The second-best solution is a subway extension to Scarborough Centre and then some LRT/BRT line(s) based around there. An LRT that only goes as far as Sheppard and has stops that are used by 100 people per hour is going to be garbage.

 

[Cobra]

So if you move 3000 jobs to STC from downtown how many of those people will drive to work vs taking transit. If its anything like my wifes suburban work then a large percentage will drive. If 50% drive then we are talking about 1500 riders or 3000 trips daily. If 66% drive then we are down to 1000 transit riders and only 2000 trips a day. Either way how does this even remotely justify a transit project that will cost billions more than its alternative. I guess Coffey is gone so now someone else has to pick up the Scarborough deserves a subway mantle.

Don't you think that your "apocalyptic" scenario is a bit of an exaggeration?

 

[amnesiajune]

Generally speaking, a big reason why people drive to jobs in the suburbs is free parking. I know this because I work in the suburbs - between 90 minutes of bus commuting (and $6.80 each way because I cross Steeles) and 60 minutes of driving, I'll obviously drive. If I was charged $150/month for parking at work (people working in North York Centre and downtown usually are), then I'd probably take transit - it's not worth the extra cost of driving at that point. So that's part of the problem with this idea of moving jobs to Scarborough Centre to support transit.

 

[Cobra]

Exactly.

I don't think people fully realize the full scope of relocating an office to the suburbs means. My dad's company is relocating an office from Scarborough (this one is on Eglinton, not STC. There isn't much office at STC.) to Markham, and half of people are either looking to jump to the downtown office or are looking for new jobs with shorter commute. Other people are looking to ditch transit and start dusting off their car in preparation for the move.

You can't compare the private sector and public service. No one is quitting their public service job over relocation.

This plan to relocate government jobs to STC will do 3 things:

1. Force qualified people to quit, replacing them with less qualified people.
2. Decrease productivity as these workers are no longer in the innovation hub that is downtown Toronto. They are not stepping stones away from other companies they do business with on a day-to-day basis with.
3. It will increase automobile dependency. The exact opposite of what we want, which is to increase transit mode share.

Why are people caring so much about what the city might with their employees? Last time I've checked, it's the employer's prerogative to manage their staff. All theses "apocalyptic" scenarios over workers being moved to Scarborough are hilarious and sad at the same time.

1.No public servant will quit over working in Scarborough. People line up for jobs like this.
2.Innovation hub????? It's freaking public Service!!!!!!! What the hell are you talking about.
3.How do you know they won't just transit longer and take to RT to STC. That's actually what most CRA employees transit to STC, they take the SRT.

Sorry but your arguments are ridiculous. If the city can cut spending which they can reinvest for infrastructure, transit or lowering tax by moving those employees, they should have done it yesterday. Jesus, the nonsense on the whole Scarborophobia is beyond stupid

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

1. Back of office joe jobs, perhaps - professionals? Don't be so sure.

3. Easy - because of transit accessibility of the core. Subway or no subway, it is considerably more difficult to travel to STC if you live elsewhere. You can't drive to downtown/park easily, but you can definitely and will drive to STC. That's what makes all the difference, not transit availability.

In any case - just take your example - wonder why the Feds didn't relocate to the STC area?

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Somehow, a train that regularly travels at 60+ km/h between stations only averages 28.5 km/h. If it's not because of the four useless stops, I don't know what it is.

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2015_01_04.pdf

It doesn't cost 3 billion. The subway costs, at most, $1 billion more than the LRT (and yes, I'm aware that the LRT is a billion dollars cheaper if it's built in 48 months, but we all know that isn't gonna happen).

If we're doing a head-to-head comparison, here's what I think: The ideal solution would be an LRT that goes all the way from Kennedy to Morningside Heights, and doesn't stop in between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy. The second-best solution is a subway extension to Scarborough Centre and then some LRT/BRT line(s) based around there. An LRT that only goes as far as Sheppard and has stops that are used by 100 people per hour is going to be garbage.

3B is the quoted figure - and if one think that building a tunnel and a new underground station somehow nets you only a 1B difference vs. using the existing alignment, the faith in the numbers are staggering (and need I remind one the Spadina extension experience when it comes to costs)

AoD