Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[amnesiajune]

The mistake a lot of people are making is in seeing the subway as something people should be able to walk to. It's real purpose is a proper transit hub for northeast Scarborough - similar Eglinton, Finch, Downsview and Kipling/Islington (and Don Mills to a lesser extent). You can build a network of buses, BRT and LRT around Scarborough Centre.

Kennedy works if you're willing to dump the hub-and-spoke transit model that's used in North York and Etobicoke, but that still requires two very long LRT lines - one to Scarborough Centre and then north along McCowan or Markham, and another along Eglinton, Kingston Road and Morningside all the way to McNicoll. The proposed "25 stop LRT network" didn't do that - those two LRT lines would've ended at Sheppard and at UTSC.

Just recently I was talking to someone at UTSC who was excited about the subway extension that would replace the aging RT. I ask if she knows it's a one-stop extension to STC costing $3.4 Billion. She tells me she didn't know. She went from excited to bewildered and disappointed in seconds.

Did you tell her that the alternative would cost almost as much and STC would be where most of its users got on and off?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Did you tell her that the alternative would cost almost as much and STC would be where most of its users got on and off?

No, because as the TTC has acknowledged, that claim is inaccurate.

 

[rbt]

Is the LRT magically immune to cost overruns?

Yes actually. Since it's independent of the existing system it can and would be tendered for a fixed price under a design+build+maintain contract. See the Hurontario LRT RFQ for an example of this kind of package. Finch, Hamilton, and Eglinton (mostly) are also using this kind of tender.

Scarborough subway, being an extension of an active system, would be tendered similarly to the Spadina extension with the TTC and city taking responsibility for anything overlooked. In theory this should be a slightly lower price (Wilson to Downsview is a great example of that) however the last 20 years hasn't been friendly to the TTC process for subway expansion.


That said, even ignoring all the above, the province took responsibility (signed contract with the city) to cover 100% of the cost of the LRT but only promised a fixed $ portion of the subway with the city absorbing any cost increases. So still not magic, but as far as the city is concerned price increases to the LRT are impossible.

 

[amnesiajune]

No, because as the TTC has acknowledged, that claim is inaccurate.

Where? All I've seen is that $1.8 billion price tag from the Star's story, which is based on finishing the LRT by 2020 - something that all of us know is a pipe dream, even if it had been approved back in July. Perhaps the price tag isn't the $2.97 billion figure based on a 2026 completion, but it would be something close to that high.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Where? All I've seen is that $1.8 billion price tag from the Star's story, which is based on finishing the LRT by 2020 - something that all of us know is a pipe dream, even if it had been approved back in July. Perhaps the price tag isn't the $2.97 billion figure based on a 2026 completion, but it would be something close to that high.

2026 completion was assuming that construction didn't start until the Crosstown was finished in 2021, five years from now. The TTC later backtracked saying that the Crosstown isn't a barrier to the construction start, and it could start significantly sooner.

 

[sixrings]

The only people who think this is more than a one stop extension are the people from Scarborough who are hoping that new money will be found. Now that they got their basic 8 cylinder ferrari on order they are hoping the factory makes a mistake and sends them a limited edition 12 cylinder model.

 

[sixrings]

I thought originally it and Sheppard were supposed to be done by now

2026 completion was assuming that construction didn't start until the Crosstown was finished in 2021, five years from now. The TTC later backtracked saying that the Crosstown isn't a barrier to the construction start, and it could start significantly sooner.

 

[Cobra]

A succesful STC is indifferent to the rest of the city, especially if it is a result of moving city workers to STC (. At best that is a sideways movement.

I'm not even entertain the idea of rebuking this based on how ridiculous that is.

The Unilever site alone will offer more jobs, more employment, more residences than STC can ever offer, closer to the downtown core, with higher walkability scores and with better transit access. Unilever isn't alone, there are many other areas in both the 416 and the 905 that are great potential hubs which will be realized before STC ever will. I can list a couple of them for you: the 6-points Interchange, The Portlands, MCC, VCC, Yonge/HW-7, downtown Markham to list a few.

Perhaps you don't get it, but the 905 is competition to the 416 in regards of attracting investors and residents. It's up to the city to use all the tools they have at their disposal to challenge those 905 centres for jobs and investments. A revitalized STC may convince employers to established themselves there instead of Markham or Vaughan. But it's the city's job to make the area desirable for residents and employers to come.

No one's talking about challenging Unilever, it's just providing more options to people and employers. Don't know if you noticed but this downtown or nothing approach has been very taxing on our transit infrastructure. Changing transit patterns so not everyone is converging downtown is highly desirable too and already being done in other world-class cities...

Hell, even the Eglinton Corridor along Scarborough has a serious likelihood of exceeding STC in employment and residential numbers.

Hence the city looking at revitalizing Scarborough Centre. Shouldn't be that way which shows the extend of the neglect that was going on all that time.

Trust me, I would like nothing more than for STC to become a wonderfully great urban place,

That's very hard to believe with your first statement

but given everything we know, the STC's prioritization is ludicrious in face of the other plentiful options the government can choose to invest in, or the other options the private sector and developers can choose from.

Yeah because New York focusing on Brooklyn while continuing investing in Manhattan for a change was ludicrous and didn't pay off...right
What? Toronto can't do 2 things at the same time like most cities are doing, even Montreal with the push of the blue Metro line to Anjou...

 

[44 North]

A succesful STC is indifferent to the rest of the city, especially if it is a result of moving city workers to STC (. At best that is a sideways movement.

The Unilever site alone will offer more jobs, more employment, more residences than STC can ever offer, closer to the downtown core, with higher walkability scores and with better transit access. Unilever isn't alone, there are many other areas in both the 416 and the 905 that are great potential hubs which will be realized before STC ever will. I can list a couple of them for you: the 6-points Interchange, The Portlands, MCC, VCC, Yonge/HW-7, downtown Markham to list a few.

Hell, even the Eglinton Corridor along Scarborough has a serious likelihood of exceeding STC in employment and residential numbers.

Trust me, I would like nothing more than for STC to become a wonderfully great urban place, but given everything we know, the STC's prioritization is ludicrious in face of the other plentiful options the government can choose to invest in, or the other options the private sector and developers can choose locate in or develop.

The only chance STC has at attracting attention (subway or not) is if the city reduced property and development charges for STC compared to the rest of the city.

Wait, how true is this? Within the decade of the RT being approved there was high-density office development in and around SC, then some thereafter. Seemingly a helluva lot more than some of the places you listed. TYSSE was approved ten years ago and as far I can tell there's one shortish office building.

I think part of the problem is that parts of the OP and secondary plan weren't realized and are in a form of stasis. I'm not saying subways will bring development, far from it. But if you look at the SC secondary plan it's still from the 2000s era and includes things like an RT vehicle replacement, RT extension, as well as a Sheppard extension. I know the majority of us don't agree with a Sheppard extension, but it was the number one priority in the 80s, 90s, and into the 2000s. Obviously it's not needed to spur development, but some decision has to be made so the secondary plan can be finalized and development can work around station locations and corridors. Once that happens there will undoubtedly be something appearing.

To argue that there's an unfixable and fundamental flaw in Scarboro and it won't ever achieve the goals of a UGC, then the whole thing is a wash. We should build neither the SLRT or SSE (both of which are very expensive projects). And where the hell were the viability reports on the Prov's amendment to have the York U extension instead terminate in an ultra-low density industrial area 2.5km north of Steeles?

 

[Palma]

Why is it a big deal to travel from west to east? I thought that the current Scarborough RT was more than enough and convenient and all it needed was new trains? So why is it the end of the world having to travel east, yet "truly" improving the east-west travel is met with so much resistance? hmm... Scarborough Centre has everything you need (Shopping, movies, food). You have a right to dislike the area but you shouldn't be making false claims like "there's nothing there"... Actually, there's not much at Sheppard-Yonge either...yet.

exactly which is why I don't like to work in the sheppard-yonge area either

 

[Palma]

Not for everybody. Quite a few folks who live at the east end will find it easier to travel to STC than to downtown in the perpetually crowded subways.

Everybody complains that there isn't enough transit capacity into downtown; then why not try to change the direction of some trips.

Plus, it will give the east-end residents, many of whom are either recent immigrants or have recently moved into the city, a better chance to get a reasonably well-paid government job.

ya, that cannot speak proper English. The same as whenever you talk to anyone working with the federal government. There are already more than enough people who are working with the government due to satisfying equity issues and cannot speak English. I have seen jobs for the federal gov't where they subdivide the ethnicity that you need to choose i.e, east Asian, east Asian, (I don't remember the rest but its crazy). Even LBQGA. How does your sexual life determine how qualified you are

 

[Palma]

Somehow, a train that regularly travels at 60+ km/h between stations only averages 28.5 km/h. If it's not because of the four useless stops, I don't know what it is.

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2015_01_04.pdf



It doesn't cost 3 billion. The subway costs, at most, $1 billion more than the LRT (and yes, I'm aware that the LRT is a billion dollars cheaper if it's built in 48 months, but we all know that isn't gonna happen).

If we're doing a head-to-head comparison, here's what I think: The ideal solution would be an LRT that goes all the way from Kennedy to Morningside Heights, and doesn't stop in between Scarborough Centre and Kennedy. The second-best solution is a subway extension to Scarborough Centre and then some LRT/BRT line(s) based around there. An LRT that only goes as far as Sheppard and has stops that are used by 100 people per hour is going to be garbage.

those figures produced to go back to LRT by the TTC are bogus. Did people not read the Toronto Star article

 

[amnesiajune]

Those figures produced to go back to LRT by the TTC are bogus. Did people not read the Toronto Star article

I did read the Toronto Star article, and the only thing that's "bogus" is its claim that the LRT would be finished within four years. Just think about that for a minute. The Finch West LRT is already at the RFP stage, it isn't much longer than the SRT replacement, and doesn't require building eight new wheelchair-accessible stations, of which three or four would be grade-separated. How is the SRT replacement supposed to be finished by 2020 when the Finch West LRT isn't going to be finished until 2021 at the earliest?

 

[Voltz]

I did read the Toronto Star article, and the only thing that's "bogus" is its claim that the LRT would be finished within four years. Just think about that for a minute. The Finch West LRT is already at the RFP stage, it isn't much longer than the SRT replacement, and doesn't require building eight new wheelchair-accessible stations, of which three or four would be grade-separated. How is the SRT replacement supposed to be finished by 2020 when the Finch West LRT isn't going to be finished until 2021 at the earliest?

They were not claiming it would be completed by 2020 if the city decided now to switch back to LRT, that was when it was planned to be done before it was cancelled. At this point 2022 would be more likely if they decide to switch now.

 

[Voltz]

I thought originally it and Sheppard were supposed to be done by now

Yes it was, until McGuinty delayed the SLRT to start in 2015 and cut it back from Malvern to Sheppard. Finch and Eglinton was shortened and delayed as well.