Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

1. Back of office joe jobs, perhaps - professionals? Don't be so sure.

3. Easy - because of transit accessibility of the core. It is considerably more difficult to travel to STC if you live elsewhere. You can't drive to downtown/park easily, but you can definitely and will drive to STC.

AoD

1. I work in Public Service. Unionized workers aren't going anywhere. Non-unionized workers like Directors or others, perhaps. I promise you, whenever we put a job advertisement, we get easily hundreds of applicants. (that's why the hiring process is so long)

3.Your quote: It is considerably more difficult to travel to STC if you live elsewhere.
-So you're conceding that Scarborough transit is deficient, right? So why keep saying that LRT on the existing route will fix the problem? This all or nothing attitude (from both pro-subway and pro-LRT advocates) led us here. If cooler heads had prevailed, better alternatives would have been found.

About your parking argument, people used to drive here at Sheppard-Yonge but as soon as the Harper government abolished free parking for public servants in government buildings, the overwhelming majority started to not only taking the TTC, but if you come here during rush hours, GO buses are everywhere, all day. Same thing would happen in Scarborough, because most public servants can't afford an extra 150$ a month + gas. Also, from a geographic point of view, Scarborough Centre is easier for people living in Durham region.

 

[amnesiajune]

RT route? It is considerably longer, for one.

"Considerably longer" doesn't help if it isn't long enough. A bus-to-LRT transfer at Sheppard isn't any better than a bus-to-SRT transfer at Scarborough Centre. What actually would help is getting rid of that transfer in the first place, either by making the LRT long enough that many people won't need to take the bus or by removing the transfer at Kennedy.

As to costs - 3B is the quoted figure - and if one think that building a tunnel and a new underground station somehow nets you only a 1B difference vs. using the existing alignment, the faith in the numbers are staggering (and need I remind one the Spadina extension experience when it comes to costs)

Is the LRT magically immune to cost overruns?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

"Considerably longer" doesn't help if it isn't long enough. A bus-to-LRT transfer at Sheppard isn't any better than a bus-to-SRT transfer at Scarborough Centre. What actually would help is getting rid of that transfer in the first place, either by making the LRT long enough that many people won't need to take the bus or by removing the transfer at Kennedy.

The transfer at Kennedy is annoying, but no amount of subway extension to STC is going to resolve the issue of the need for transfer - you are basically moving the point of the transfer elsewhere.

Is the LRT magically immune to cost overruns?

Nope, but you bet that tunneling and building new underground stations in a new alignment is a whole different ballgame. If you want to argue that the potential for the magnitude of cost overrruns is the same, I can't help you with that. It's a bit of an academic debate at this point anyways, and personally I favour subway using the existing RT alignment, which is for whatever reason possible but not in play.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

3.Your quote: It is considerably more difficult to travel to STC if you live elsewhere.
-So you're conceding that Scarborough transit is deficient, right? So why keep saying that LRT on the existing route will fix the problem? This all or nothing attitude (from both pro-subway and pro-LRT advocates) led us here. If cooler heads had prevailed, better alternatives would have been found.

About your parking argument, people used to drive here at Sheppard-Yonge but as soon as the Harper government abolished free parking for public servants in government buildings, the overwhelming majority started to not only taking the TTC, but if you come here during rush hours, GO buses are everywhere, all day. Same thing would happen in Scarborough, because most public servants can't afford an extra 150$ a month + gas. Also, from a geographic point of view, Scarborough Centre is easier for people living in Durham region.

That is really funny - if you argue that workers are willing to brave all the inconveniences to get to a job, and then turn around and saying that LRT won't fix the problem because it is "inconvenient", then what is it, exactly? Not to say transfers are ideal - but do you seriously believe that it is the singular transit issue that makes or breaks locational decisions?

As to the bigger picture of government spending - so, we are proposing to spend 3B to build a one stop subway extension when other arrangements are available (and it doesn't even necessarily involve ditching the notion of it being a subway line) - but we are going to save a few million by relocating jobs just because? Not to mention ironically that the subway extension benefits mainly travel to downtown - not intra-borough travel.

AoD

 

[amnesiajune]

The transfer at Kennedy is annoying, but no amount of subway extension to STC is going to resolve the issue of the need for transfer - you are basically moving the point of the transfer elsewhere.

Compared to the current SRT, and compared to an LRT that ends at Sheppard, either of those would completely eliminate one transfer for most users. Before you had to transfer at Kennedy and Scarborough Centre, now you'll only have to transfer at one of those (and hopefully with stops eliminated between Kennedy and STC, the LRT would be nearly as fast as the subway.

Nope, but you bet that tunneling and building new underground stations in a new alignment is a whole different ballgame. If you want to argue that the potential for the magnitude of cost overrruns is the same, I can't help you with that. It's a bit of an academic debate at this point anyways, and personally I favour subway using the existing RT alignment, which is for whatever reason possible but not in play.

First of all, is elevated rail (the LRT would be elevated from Midland to Sheppard) and eight brand new stations (Kennedy is being replaced, and none of the existing stations other than STC are accessible) not a similar risk?

And second, I think the problem with the existing alignment for subways has been thoroughly explained - Kennedy station is built east-west, the turn between Ellesmere and Midland is too tight, and the tunnel is too small. The existing alignment would require a rebuild of Kennedy station (which messes up the Crosstown LRT) and a new tunnel/bridge to make the turn (which, by the way, would require expropriation of some industrial parks or a very creative solution to build around them)

 

[Cobra]

That is really funny - if you argue that workers are willing to brave all the inconveniences to get to a job, and then turn around and saying that LRT won't fix the problem because it is deficient because it is "inconvenient", then what is it, exactly?

AoD

We're going in circles.

The bottom line is that Scarborough is getting a subway stop and the best we can wish for is that the city succeeds at revitalizing Scarborough Centre as Toronto's eastern gates. A successful STC is a win for the city. That's all

 

[44 North]

Has it been made official that it's one station? I thought it was supposed to be two, and maybe one if costs are too high... but the original proposal was to be three stations. Not on board with the subway, nor the LRT for that matter. But if we are building a subway it makes very little sense to bypass Lawrence.

 

[smallspy]

Somehow, a train that regularly travels at 60+ km/h between stations only averages 28.5 km/h. If it's not because of the four useless stops, I don't know what it is.

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service_Summary_2015_01_04.pdf

Because it doesn't travel 60km/h+ - it's been limited to 50km/h since the beginning of the summer. And because there are a number of places were even that lower top speed can't be achieved due to the alignment.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Cobra]

Has it been made official that it's one station? I thought it was supposed to be two, and maybe one if costs are too high... but the original proposal was to be three stations. Not on board with the subway, nor the LRT for that matter. But if we are building a subway it makes very little sense to bypass Lawrence.

 

[44 North]

Seems a bit backward to have commuter rail with such short station spacing, but have rapid transit with such large spacing. Or rather it is backward.

O/T, but anyone think it'd be a good idea to create a single track subway branch from Scarb Centre station to UTSC, and/or from SC to Sheppard-McCowan? It'd probably cost ~50% the going rate of subway construction, and may prove beneficial. More coverage for less cost.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Has it been made official that it's one station? I thought it was supposed to be two, and maybe one if costs are too high... but the original proposal was to be three stations. Not on board with the subway, nor the LRT for that matter. But if we are building a subway it makes very little sense to bypass Lawrence.

It's a one stop subway, as council approved. The chances of enough savings for more stops is basically zero. The one-stop is expected to cost at least $3.4 Billion with costs rising up to $4.4 Billion once engineering is complete for the one stop extension.

 

[Hopkins123]

Yesh, how much would be saved from cancelling SmartTrack on the Stoufville Line that could be redirected towards SSE? There must a few hundred million lying around somewhere that could go towards a Lawrence-McCowan station. That and provisions for a roughed in Brimley Station that can be infilled at a later date.

 

[WislaHD]

We're going in circles.

The bottom line is that Scarborough is getting a subway stop and the best we can wish for is that the city succeeds at revitalizing Scarborough Centre as Toronto's eastern gates. A successful STC is a win for the city. That's all

A succesful STC is indifferent to the rest of the city, especially if it is a result of moving city workers to STC (. At best that is a sideways movement.

The Unilever site alone will offer more jobs, more employment, more residences than STC can ever offer, closer to the downtown core, with higher walkability scores and with better transit access. Unilever isn't alone, there are many other areas in both the 416 and the 905 that are great potential hubs which will be realized before STC ever will. I can list a couple of them for you: the 6-points Interchange, The Portlands, MCC, VCC, Yonge/HW-7, downtown Markham to list a few.

Hell, even the Eglinton Corridor along Scarborough has a serious likelihood of exceeding STC in employment and residential numbers.

Trust me, I would like nothing more than for STC to become a wonderfully great urban place, but given everything we know, the STC's prioritization is ludicrious in face of the other plentiful options the government can choose to invest in, or the other options the private sector and developers can choose locate in or develop.

The only chance STC has at attracting attention (subway or not) is if the city reduced property and development charges for STC compared to the rest of the city.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yesh, how much would be saved from cancelling SmartTrack on the Stoufville Line that could be redirected towards SSE? There must a few hundred million lying around somewhere that could go towards a Lawrence-McCowan station. That and provisions for a roughed in Brimley Station that can be infilled at a later date.

SmartTrack is $700 Million. That money would certainly be of more utility if used to build an additional SSE station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Seems a bit backward to have commuter rail with such short station spacing, but have rapid transit with such large spacing. Or rather it is backward.

O/T, but anyone think it'd be a good idea to create a single track subway branch from Scarb Centre station to UTSC, and/or from SC to Sheppard-McCowan? It'd probably cost ~50% the going rate of subway construction, and may prove beneficial. More coverage for less cost.

It's a one stop subway, as council approved. The chances of enough savings for more stops is basically zero. The one-stop is expected to cost at least $3.4 Billion with costs rising up to $4.4 Billion once engineering is complete for the one stop extension.

Yesh, how much would be saved from cancelling SmartTrack on the Stoufville Line that could be redirected towards SSE? There must a few hundred million lying around somewhere that could go towards a Lawrence-McCowan station. That and provisions for a roughed in Brimley Station that can be infilled at a later date.

It's incredible how many people don't realize this is a one-stop extension. Just recently I was talking to someone at UTSC who was excited about the subway extension that would replace the aging RT. I ask if she knows it's a one-stop extension to STC costing $3.4 Billion. She tells me she didn't know. She went from excited to bewildered and disappointed in seconds.

We know from polling that people across the city overwhelmingly oppose the extension once they know it's only one-stop. But I don't think most people realize that. They hear "Scarborough is getting a subway" and think "yay, an upgrade to the RT", not realizing that STC is the only station.