Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

I get what you're trying to say, but I take issue with this:



Most Downtown Toronto residents will tell you that they will see little to no benefit from the DRL. Either because they don't need to take transit since they work close to home, or because they're already within walking distance of their closest station. The people the DRL will benefit the most from DRL is definitely Downtown bound travellers coming from the Eastern Toronto. It certainly would have been very useful for me back when I lived in the East York.

I can keep hearing this and I don't buy it one bit. Actually, Metrolinx and the TTC don't buy it either. If the chief beneficiary were Scarborough commuters, ridership forecasts for the DRL would be nowhere near as high as they are. Keep in mind that not all riders are diverted at Pape. The DRL will still only be useful if you are commuting to point along the line or south of the line. For most other passengers, continuing to Yonge would be better. Add to that, the Eglinton line which will also divert a good chunk of Scarborough and North York commuters by having them transfer at Eglinton.

So the reality is that the majority of DRL riders will be Old Toronto and East York residents. Absolutely, nothing wrong with that. The subway still needs to get built. However, it's very tough to ask the borough where people have household incomes that are $25 000 lower to pay substantially higher taxes (2-3% of gross is not a joke if your family income is $57 000...it's wiping out every federal and provincial tax cut given in the last decade) to build a subway in an area where people are substantially better off.

If you take a rough guess (Scarborough at 10% of the GTHA's population), this means that Scarborough will be paying at least $200-$250 million per year in new taxes. For those funds, they will only see one additional line above and beyond the MO2020 funded projects. If you look at a 25 year timeframe, Scarborough actually ends up paying for all the LRT lines and SRT replacement that are built. Essentially this means, for the bulk of the 25 years, Scarborough residents will be paying for transit construction everywhere else but Scarborough. The proposed $500 million is about 2-3 years of Scarborough's own payout. Hardly the money grab some are making it out to be.

 

[kEiThZ]

But are the mayors of the other cities just gonna sit by and watch revenue get raised all over the region just get spent on the Toronto projects that get pushed ahead of the others?

I have been saying this since revenue tools were first being discussed......the art is not defining and implementing tools that, region-wide, will raise $2B a year...that is just math. The art is then spending that money over a 25 year period in such a fashion that no one region feels that all they are doing is funding building for someone else. Don't forget, around these parts, anyone who institutes/collects these new revenue tools has to go to the electorate every 4 or so years.........if a provincial government gets support for 4 years of this, then 4 years later all they have done is build subways in Scarborough and downtown Toronto they can pretty much kiss any votes in the surrounding municipalities goodbye (and the opposite is true if they focus on GO expansion exclusively first).

The reality is that over 4 years you have $8 billion. That buys a lot of transit all over the GTHA. They aren't funding a project at a time. It'll be an evolving bank account. Also, with the 905 projects being mostly BRTs and LRTs, they actually won't be difficult to fund. The toughest phasing will be Toronto's LRTs, the DRL, Yonge North, and major expansion of GO (including electrification).

 

[kEiThZ]

What I was getting at is the renegotiation of the plan as hostage for the support....not just the subway v LRT argument. Aside from wanting the mode changed, these councillors are also "demanding" that this project be the first funded. So how much when the councillors say:



how much different is that from the councillor in Milton who said:



The slippery slope I see is that once one area renegotiates the plan, then it opens it up for everyone to do the same...or withhold their support. Frankly, if one area gets to rewrite the plan in their favour before endorsing the funding mechanism...I would expect no less of the people who represent me.

And the province has plenty of justification in this case to treat Scarborough as a special case. The SRT has to close. It has to be replaced. And shunting 40 000 riders by bus for 5 years isn't really that great an idea. That's why it has to go first. Heck, that's already being planned for with the LRT plan anyway. It's not like the LRT plan was going to slot in after other projects. The only debate here is over $2.3 billion for the LRT plan or $2.8 billion for the subway plan. That kind of debate will only take place in Toronto.

 

[ShonTron]

So the reality is that the majority of DRL riders will be Old Toronto and East York residents. Absolutely, nothing wrong with that. The subway still needs to get built. However, it's very tough to ask the borough where people have household incomes that are $25 000 lower to pay substantially higher taxes (2-3% of gross is not a joke if your family income is $57 000...it's wiping out every federal and provincial tax cut given in the last decade) to build a subway in an area where people are substantially better off.

But we've been doing this in North York for two decades! The City of Toronto has been waiting a very long time - since 1978 (and even then, that was three subway stations, two on the border with York). What about Etobicoke, it's not like they're getting much directly out of this either. Who will speak up for poor, poor Etobicoke?

 

[Ansem]

Since moving here from Montreal, that's the thing I've noticed...How divisive the different parts of Toronto are towards each other.

I've lived in Montreal, New York, Chicago, London and Paris and Toronto is really messed up in that way... You guys, we're all one city now... but hey I can already expect the stones coming my way saying I'm wrong.

No wonder nothing will ever get done right in Toronto.

Although the Orange line is severely overcrowded in Montreal, they are not fighting among themselves to know who deserves subway and who should settle for less. The Blue line will get extended east through less fortunate areas to reach Anjou...yes a big mall and the whole city agrees with it. Those less fortunate family shouldn't be forced to get a car that some of them can barely afford to go work on the other side of the island or have their quality of life drastically reduced because of the slow transit they have now making it hard to have access to their jobs in a reasonable amount of time.

LRTs exists in the St-Denis area of Paris but they got subways built there first so that middle class families could have a fast access to the core for work or entertainment. Look at London, look at Chicago and New York.

Why are we behaving that way? Fighting among each other, taking shots at each other over boroughs vs the core... How can Toronto reach it's potential with that kind of thinking?

 

[Jaye101]

If the subway is built instead of an LRT, I think the Sheppard LRT might end up taking over the infrastructure for the RT from Midland to McCowan stations, extending it along the same route to Markham and Sheppard. This would give SCC a both north south and east-west rapid transit.

 

[rm20010]

I live right at McCowan and Sheppard but I don't mind either option. Preferably the SRT extension given it'll serve more neighbourhoods, but a quicker commute to downtown from home via the BD extension isn't a bad thing either.

Though where would the station box go if it's a subway extension? There's the vacant parking lot on the southeast corner which used to have a gas station a couple of years ago but it's been sitting vacant for probably the last 5 years, though it can only remain as a station box lest you expropriate the medical offices and pharmacy currently sitting beside it. The car dealership(s) on the NE are a better option to build on - they could relocate further down Sheppard if need be (there's an empty lot beside the fire station, for starters). If the station materializes I can't see it being anymore than a simple station box - having a bus terminal at Sheppard and McCowan seems a bit of a waste when STC is a few blocks south. Just a on-road connection to the Sheppard LRT is sufficient.

 

[TOareaFan]

If you take a rough guess (Scarborough at 10% of the GTHA's population), this means that Scarborough will be paying at least $200-$250 million per year in new taxes. For those funds, they will only see one additional line above and beyond the MO2020 funded projects. If you look at a 25 year timeframe, Scarborough actually ends up paying for all the LRT lines and SRT replacement that are built. Essentially this means, for the bulk of the 25 years, Scarborough residents will be paying for transit construction everywhere else but Scarborough. The proposed $500 million is about 2-3 years of Scarborough's own payout. Hardly the money grab some are making it out to be.

Isn't this a calc that can be done in more places than just Scarborough though?

 

[kEiThZ]

But we've been doing this in North York for two decades! The City of Toronto has been waiting a very long time - since 1978 (and even then, that was three subway stations, two on the border with York). What about Etobicoke, it's not like they're getting much directly out of this either. Who will speak up for poor, poor Etobicoke?

Heck, I expect Etobicoke will be pissed too. And they should be. With Eglinton getting cut. But beyond that, northern Etobicoke does alright with the FWLRT.

Unfortunatley for Etobicoke though, their champions are Doug and Rob Ford.

 

[kEiThZ]

I live right at McCowan and Sheppard but I don't mind either option. Preferably the SRT extension given it'll serve more neighbourhoods, but a quicker commute to downtown from home via the BD extension isn't a bad thing either.

Though where would the station box go if it's a subway extension? There's the vacant parking lot on the southeast corner which used to have a gas station a couple of years ago but it's been sitting vacant for probably the last 5 years, though it can only remain as a station box lest you expropriate the medical offices and pharmacy currently sitting beside it. The car dealership(s) on the NE are a better option to build on - they could relocate further down Sheppard if need be (there's an empty lot beside the fire station, for starters). If the station materializes I can't see it being anymore than a simple station box - having a bus terminal at Sheppard and McCowan seems a bit of a waste when STC is a few blocks south. Just a on-road connection to the Sheppard LRT is sufficient.

They'll need a small bus terminal at McCowan to intercept all the Malvern and Agincourt bus routes.

 

[kEiThZ]

Isn't this a calc that can be done in more places than just Scarborough though?

Certainly.

And oddly enough, many may actually come out ahead of Scarborough, when you look at money that will be spent on say the Hurontario LRT or all the GO improvements benefitting the 905.

In Toronto's case though, just look inside the 416. Scarborough will be the only borough paying to see only one project built after these lines (SMLRT). And that too Scarborough is larger geographically than say Etobicoke for example. Scarborough will effectively be paying to build the DRL at this point. Nothing wrong with that from my perspective. But I do see how many of these councillors will have a tough time selling that as the raison d'etre for all the new taxes. The SRT shutdown really doesn't help them either.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

The Scarborough councillors have no choice. Their constituents will be hopping mad when they get that letter in the mail advising them of the SRT shut down, right after they get a notice about all the "revenue tools" they'll be "using". They better have something to show for it. As for the other councillors, some are Rob Ford types and simply won't vote for it, because they don't support the new taxes. It has nothing at all to do with opposition to the subway. The anti-SRT subway crowd is actually small. And in the end, they'll come together. Because they all fear Rob Ford's populism and a possible backlash at a provincial election (electing Hudak), far more than they really care about the money being spent here.

This move by Stintz puts Ford in a very difficult position. He votes against revenue tools and there will be posters all over Scarborough about how he voted against the Scarborough subway. Or he votes for the "revenue tools" (far-fetched I know) and Ford nation will give their founder the boot. Either way, Stintz wins. Rob Ford loses.

At the end of the day, the only way there will be real movement on a Bloor-Danforth extension is if a majority of city council backs the idea and so far, from what I see, it looks like the overall support is dodgy. Not all councillors in Scarborough are in favour of the plan (so far 7 out of 10 support it) as it means changing what is currently being development aka an LRT replacement for the SRT. Other councillors like Josh Matlow will not vote in favour of a Bloor-Danforth for that reason. Many councillors - while acknowledging a Bloor-Danforth extension is a good, yet politically motivated transit choice - are tired of going back and forth with what to do. I can understand that.

So far, this is who is supporting a subway extension:

Karen Stintz
Glenn De Baeremaeker
Raymond Cho
Chin Lee
Michael Thompson
Gary Crawford
Michelle Berardinetti
Joe Mihevc
Josh Colle.
Possibly Norm Kelly, Ron Moeser and Ana Bailao

You will probably vote against it:

Rob Ford
Doug Ford
Doug Holyday
Vincent Crisanti
Giorgio Mammoliti
Shelley Carroll
Frances Nunziata
Josh Matlow
Paul Ainslie
Gord Perks
James Pasternak

I do think a Bloor-Danforth extension is the best choice in the end of the day, like you, but it's a gamble whether there will be enough city council support to get this moving forward. I hope a subway extension happens but I have gut feeling the LRT will win, and yes, I think a majority of Scarborough residents will be disappointed.

And while this does put Rob Ford in a sticky spot, I have no doubt that the Sheppard subway and a Finch subway will be his key focus in the next election. If the LRT replacement for the SRT happens, it will not matter to Ford as he'll campaigned for Sheppard and Finch, but other Scarborough councillors will have to fight a little harder to be re-elected.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And while this does put Rob Ford in a sticky spot, I have no doubt that the Sheppard subway and a Finch subway will be his key focus in the next election. If the LRT replacement for the SRT happens, it will not matter to Ford as he'll campaigned for Sheppard and Finch, but other Scarborough councillors will have to fight a little harder to be re-elected.

A Finch Subway would be an even bigger waste of our money than the Sheppard Subway.

And no, I'm not blaming you for this Stevie. The Twins and their allies have yapped about it a few times and every time I wanted to throw my computer across the room. No intelligent person in their right mind would propose such a project.

I hate politics.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Etobicoke gets all day 2 way go on the Milton line and Kitchener line. Scarborough gets The Durham BRT and stouffville All day 2 way GO.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

A Finch Subway would be an even bigger waste of our money than the Sheppard Subway.

And no, I'm not blaming you for this Stevie. The Twins and their allies have yapped about it a few times and every time I wanted to throw my computer across the room. No intelligent person in their right mind would propose such a project.

I hate politics.

I know you don't blame me for this, but this is what happens when we elect people like Rob and Doug Ford who make silly promises like a Finch subway. Had Rob Ford not put all of his focus into burying the whole Eglinton Crosstown and a Sheppard Subway extension, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Heck, he could of focused on a B-D extension and just a Sheppard Subway west extension to Downsview station, but instead, we are on the cusp of loosing the Scarborough subway extension... again.

Yes, politics suck. Politics are necessary but they suck.