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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

TheTigerMaster said:
What makes you think the TTC is trying to get out of the SSE? Their comments about the cost overruns aren't anything they haven't said already.
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Because they keep making them! Just work on the project if there are no issues.

Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
2025 is actually a reasonable time frame isn't it? These things usually take around 10 years?
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TheTigerMaster said:
"Around 10 years" is reasonable, yes. But detailed engineering work has yet to be competed, so exact timetable is impossible to know for sure. But the TTC has said since the one stop Subway was proposed that 2025 would be nearly unachievable. I'd wager that 2026 to 2027 will be the actual schedule.

Every year of delay adds something like $100 Million to the price, hence the urgency.
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Steve X said:
Without an EA and initial design work, anything can be up in the air. We still have funding problems, EA approval, TBM ordering, land acquisition and tendering to get through. The EA will take at least 2 years to be approved if it starts soon. This includes about 3 public meetings. It will take at least another year and a half to put a shovel in the ground after the EA process. If TTC actually goes with a P3 and tender the whole thing out to a consortium, it will take longer to tender as the consortium needs to do some design work. 5 years for construction is really pushing it considering TYSSE and Crosstown are taking significantly longer. Heck it takes 4 years for a LRT with little digging. It should really be 2.5 years for a surface LRT like Finch West. With everything approved and funded, Finch wouldn't even start till late-2017.

I don't expect any groundbreaking work will occur till late 2020. Late 2026 or mid 2027 is more likely opening date. Even the crosstown was planned for a 2020 completion was set to 2021 by the consortium at the time the project is tendered.

The figures are chosen are very optimistic and never correct. TTC has failed to deliver anything on time recently. TYSSE, Leslie Barns, streetcar overhead replacement, Line 1 ATC, etc. They should just told everyone the subway will open by 2028 with a possible $4.5B. Let's see if the councilors still prefer it over the LRT.
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It should be 5 and not 10 years. Even from now. It does not take 2 years to do an EA or design work. Tory should have made them start immediately.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
If the TTC is trying to get out of this, we have a problem. If they don't want to do it, Tory is stuck. If they wont't pay, what do we do?
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Move to North York or Vaughan.

In all seriousness I don't agree with your "if" statement as being probable unless there is Political destruction going on behinds the scenes. Which I highly doubt. There is a 3rd party consultant currently retained to review alternate routes right now. Ill await to see what these rocket scientists are aiming to draw up.
 
coffey1 said:
There is a 3rd party consultant currently retained to review alternate routes right now. Ill await to see what these rocket scientists are aiming to draw up.
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Really? I didn't know that. Do we know when we'll hear from the consultant?

The TTC again declared the surface SRT alignment impossible, despite Metrolinx completing preliminary engineering work on the alignment. I hope this third party is taking another look at that.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Really? I didn't know that. Do we know when we'll hear from the consultant?

The TTC again declared the surface SRT alignment impossible, despite Metrolinx completing preliminary engineering work on the alignment. I hope this third party is taking another look at that.
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The Star makes no mention of it, just their usually condescending rhetoric.... But fingers are crossed as this Consultantant would have been clearly asked to review surface options along the RT right of way. You have to laugh that the we need a guided 3rd party "expert" to step over the previous guided "expert". Good ol' Politics. Certainly seems like clear direction to provide a surface design where possible.


Recap of July's Council approval meeting from http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2016/07/18-city_counc.shtml#scar

By approving the Scarborough subway extension, council also authorized City or Toronto Transit Commission staff to:

  • work with the Province of Ontario and Metrolinx to complete any remaining technical and planning analysis and start the formal environmental assessment / transit project assessment process, as provincial statutes require;
  • retain a third-party rail-transit construction and cost expert to:
  • review the TTC’s five-percent design cost estimates for the McCowan corridor and other possible express subway alignment options;
  • estimate the costs for a subway route along the Scarborough rapid transit right of way, routing the subway track on the surface or above ground, from a point just south of Lawrence Avenue East; and
  • prepare an environmental project report to start a formal transit project assessment process for the project, as provincial statutes require.
  • redesign Kennedy Station to improve connections between various transit lines, including the extensions to the Crosstown LRT and the 2 Bloor - Danforth subway; and
  • consult with Metrolinx in preparing a business case analysis for the entire Scarborough Transit plan, including the eastern extension of the Crosstown LRT.
It also directed staff to rule out any further plans to locate a subway-construction work site in the Frank Faubert Woodlot on the northwest corner of Ellesmere and McCowan Roads.
  • review the TTC’s five-percent design cost estimates for the McCowan corridor and other possible express subway alignment options;
  • estimate the costs for a subway route along the Scarborough rapid transit right of way, routing the subway track on the surface or above ground, from a point just south of Lawrence Avenue East; and
  • prepare an environmental project report to start a formal transit project assessment process for the project, as provincial statutes require




From the latest Star article FWIW "Councillors weren’t asked to choose an alignment at the July meeting, and the route is still being studied. Although the report determined that the McCowan alignment scored high on many city criteria, according to chief city planner Jennifer Keesmaat, since July planning staff have been working in conjunction with the TTC to assess alternate routes, including one along Midland Ave. and another along Brimley Rd."
 
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andrewpmk said:
The DRL would cost far, far, more, probably at least $10 billion.

The Scarborough subway is still needed, but more funding is required and the Lawrence East station needs to be readded.
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Keep in mind I'm referring to the first phase of the DRL, not the entire thing. Even if the first phase was $10 billion, I still think it offers far greater value than a 1 stop vanity extension.

I have to take exception to the notion that the Scarborough extension is "needed". It's not needed - it's wanted, which is something else entirely.

The DRL is needed. It's been desperately needed for many years now. Scarborough could easily do well with an LRT, or even possibly even a refurbished RT.

If subways were built with necessity in mind, the Scarborough extension would be near the bottom of the list.
 
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syn said:
Keep in mind I'm referring to the first phase of the DRL, not the entire thing. Even if the first phase was $10 billion, I still think it offers far greater value than a 1 stop vanity extension.

I have to take exception to the notion that the Scarborough extension is "needed". It's not needed - it's wanted, which is something else entirely.

The DRL is needed. It's been desperately needed for many years now. Scarborough could easily do well with a refurbished LRT, or even possibly even a refurbished RT.

If subways were built with necessity in mind, the Scarborough extension would be near the bottom of the list.
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I prefer to see growth thats far overdue done together to build a healthy City with no divisive "feed the beast" & "starve the least" mentality. The RT is a segregated, poorly designed line that had its time. The lack of DRL funding battle went hard to find savings in Scarborough and that has backfired, It wasn't even going to help all that much in the big picture & a lot of time has been wasted on this effort for a certain group of outside Politicians. Working together to point the battle in the proper direction would be the right plan of attack to get transit built.

The SSE is needed as well as so much more transit in this great City. We can all "priorities' based on out needs. The reality is we need a plan to pay for 20-30Billion worth of over transit and no fight over 1-2billion which can be argued at length of its benefit.

This has to stop in this City for us to move forward. And if we are going to fight similar battles in the future over operational costs and what not we need a well integrated City.
 
coffey1 said:
I prefer to see growth thats far overdue done together to build a healthy City with no divisive "feed the beast" & "starve the least" mentality. The RT is a segregated, poorly designed line that had its time. The lack of DRL funding battle went hard to find savings in Scarborough and that has backfired, It wasn't even going to help all that much in the big picture & a lot of time has been wasted on this effort for a certain group of outside Politicians. Working together to point the battle in the proper direction would be the right plan of attack to get transit built.

The SSE is needed as well as so much more transit in this great City. We can all "priorities' based on out needs. The reality is we need a plan to pay for 20-30Billion worth of over transit and no fight over 1-2billion which can be argued at length of its benefit.

This has to stop in this City for us to move forward. And if we are going to fight similar battles in the future over operational costs and what not we need a well integrated City.
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What does that even mean??

Is the Queen Streetcar segregated too? How about Spadina?

How is a $4 billion - $5 billion one stop extension a better design decision than the current route that serves more users in more areas of Scarborough??

You keep saying it's needed but provide no actual facts to justify it.
 
coffey1 said:
Move to North York or Vaughan.

In all seriousness I don't agree with your "if" statement as being probable unless there is Political destruction going on behinds the scenes. Which I highly doubt. There is a 3rd party consultant currently retained to review alternate routes right now. Ill await to see what these rocket scientists are aiming to draw up.
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I'd like to see plan or even just progress by Feb.
 
syn said:
What does that even mean??

Is the Queen Streetcar segregated too? How about Spadina?

How is a $4 billion - $5 billion one stop extension a better design decision than the current route that serves more users in more areas of Scarborough??

You keep saying it's needed but provide no actual facts to justify it.
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Those lines are unreasonable comparables. The streetcar lines are more like our Ellesmere BRT or Eglinton LRT will be in the future which run as feed routes across the main artery.

The subway can hopefully be built cheaper on the surface. And yes it worth very penny to connect Scarborough Center seamlessly to the main artery of this City. Also your numbers of $4-5 Billion is just a false estimate & more of the same mudslinging as no route has been designed yet to put number against aside from the just over 3Billion one stop which required deep tunneling. Which is why we are now exploring cheaper alternatives.
 
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coffey1 said:
Those lines are not reasonable comparable. The streetcar lines are more like our Ellesmere BRT or Eglinton LRT will be in the future which run as feed routes across the main artery.

It can hopefully be built cheaper on the surface. And yes it worth very penny to connect Scarborough Center seamlessly to the main artery of this City. And your numbers of $4-5 Billion is just a false estimate & more of the same mudslinging as no route has been designed yet to put number against aside from the just over 3Billion one stop which required deep tunneling. Which is why we are now exploring cheaper alternatives.
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The main artery will be eglinton once it's done, not Bloor. Bloor is not the center of the city, you're thinking downtown. Even if the subway is built, it will still go south. LRT or the original Eglinton plan, would connect to the main artery as Y and E is the center of Toronto.
 
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