Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

$4.2 billion to build a one station extension compared to 6 stops on the TYSSE for a final pricetag of just $2.9 billion in 2010 dollars, most with elaborate bus terminals attached. Things sure have really gone up in such a short span of time.

Either the market burst or something gives. We can't go on like this.


The star should stop with the negative stories, but there are legitimate issues here so I am torn.

 

[Dan416]

Just rebuild the curves and buy some Mk III trains and call it a day.

 

[coffey1]

Either the market burst or something gives. We can't go on like this.


The star should stop with the negative stories, but there are legitimate issues here so I am torn.

The Market cycle will burst and then it will recover soon after... Rinse and repeat. Halting long term plans over market conditions is not reasonable. Although im sure the Star is salivating to attack over this type of event. People really need to stop attacking the Scarborough subway as the reason we don't have 10+ Billion for the DRL and another 10+ billon need on other projects. We don't currently have a proper tax in place. That is the problem and not an excuse for patch work solutions either.

The Scarborough extension is being reviewed for other corridors and stop. Yet the Star is opportunistic as always to rally up their base again the SSE. If they reported responsibly this corridor review by a third party was a common knowledge from the last vote and a minor issue in the overall scope. The one stop line will most surely be optimized, the media will cry and well move forward.

We need to stop the same hateful rhetoric towards the SSE, especially if they're not interested in helping to optimize the subway. There is MUCH more transit to be funded everywhere and its going to cost a lot and the SSE will not be the reason we cant afford this transit plan and too much time is being wasted trying to kill it by the usual outsiders. Spend less time attacking within the City and more time lobbying upper government levels and creating a sustainable tax base for transit growth.

If the polarizing attacks continue then were likely to see less action everywhere. We are WAY past due in many areas of the City to keep fighting over a useful project, or pit one plan as a priority against the other. Its time to demand funding needed to build an integrated, extensive network in his City and stop the games

Also I wouldn't be shocked if the SSE will becomes the rare project that will ever be built near its budget once its designed due to the abnormal scrutiny its received ahead of time. All the other projects make false figures, move forward, double and triple the cost, people turn a blind eye and the areas reap the rewards. The Political "haves" surely wont let this ol' game happen now that its time to build in its Suburbs.

 

[BurlOak]

In other news, Vancouver will open the Evergreen Line by Christmas this year.

That's $1.4B for 11km, or $130M/km for fully grade-separated transit.

And by a coincidence, it is about 23 km from STC to Downtown - which works out to about $3.0B. Less than the single stop subway extension.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

$4.2 billion to build a one station extension compared to 6 stops on the TYSSE for a final pricetag of just $2.9 billion in 2010 dollars, most with elaborate bus terminals attached. Things sure have really gone up in such a short span of time.

Cost of construction is going up up up. Staff are scrambling to have Council make their decisions ASAP for a reason. Every day we wait all our projects will get more expensive, to the tune of millions of dollars per month. (Might actually be tens of millions per month; I can't remember the exact number staff provided).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Just rebuild the curves and buy some Mk III trains and call it a day.

If they can;t figure something out...

The Market cycle will burst and then it will recover soon after... Rinse and repeat. Halting long term plans over market conditions is not reasonable. Although im sure the Star is salivating to attack over this type of event. People really need to stop attacking the Scarborough subway as the reason we don't have 10+ Billion for the DRL and another 10+ billon need on other projects. We don't currently have a proper tax in place. That is the problem and not an excuse for patch work solutions either.

The Scarborough extension is being reviewed for other corridors and stop. Yet the Star is opportunistic as always to rally up their base again the SSE. If they reported responsibly this corridor review by a third party was a common knowledge from the last vote and a minor issue in the overall scope. The one stop line will most surely be optimized, the media will cry and well move forward.

We need to stop the same hateful rhetoric towards the SSE, especially if they're not interested in helping to optimize the subway. There is MUCH more transit to be funded everywhere and its going to cost a lot and the SSE will not be the reason we cant afford this transit plan and too much time is being wasted trying to kill it by the usual outsiders. Spend less time attacking within the City and more time lobbying upper government levels and creating a sustainable tax base for transit growth.

If the polarizing attacks continue then were likely to see less action everywhere. We are WAY past due in many areas of the City to keep fighting over a useful project, or pit one plan as a priority against the other. Its time to demand funding needed to build an integrated, extensive network in his City and stop the games

Also I wouldn't be shocked if the SSE will becomes the rare project that will ever be built near its budget once its designed due to the abnormal scrutiny its received ahead of time. All the other projects make false figures, move forward, double and triple the cost, people turn a blind eye and the areas reap the rewards. The Political "haves" surely wont let this ol' game happen now that its time to build in its Suburbs.

Obviously the star is enjoying this but this is not an "attack". This is coming from city hall and the TTC. There has to be a point where we realize if this can't get done, it can't get done. It does't even mean we can't build a subway in Scarborough, yet. If the funds went to Sheppard East and we went back to the SRT plan would it really make a difference to those west of McCowan?

 

[BurlOak]

We've gone through 3 Mayors (4 if you count Norm Kelly) and transit is still a mess. The only constant is the Provincial government that has been pulling the strings and fudging reports in the background.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto transit used to be the envy of the world. The problem is we don't build anymore. We don't build anymore and we don't maintain what we've got. When I go to China, or Dubai, or Brazil, their infrastructure is glistening. I come back to Toronto and it's an embarrassment. The air condition isn't even working because the corrupt Lying Tory is determined to turn Toronto into a third world slum.

Folks, when I become mayor we're going to build. I'm going to raise your taxes and build so much. Build so much that people beg Mayor Tiger Master to stop building. But I'm going to keep on building and keep on winning and make toronto the best and most winningest in city in the world. I am such a winner. Have you seen the latest polls?! We're smokin' Lying Tory.

Folks, the Chinese are going to envy us, let me tell you that right now. We're going to build so much and make Toronto great again.

 

[coffey1]

If they can;t figure something out...
Obviously the star is enjoying this but this is not an "attack". This is coming from city hall and the TTC. There has to be a point where we realize if this can't get done, it can't get done. It does't even mean we can't build a subway in Scarborough, yet. If the funds went to Sheppard East and we went back to the SRT plan would it really make a difference to those west of McCowan?

The Star has attacked enough to know their clear motive.

There's a point when we have to realize the cost to build a proper network and fund it and stop trying to patch in Scarborough. Do we need another election to get the same answer? Connect Scarborough with reasonably integrated design. Most don't care if the subway is on the surface for the most part. But building it to SCC does matter and so does designing to no add an extra transfer on Sheppard to many commuters. Time to move on from this epic RT fail. Sheppard East could be supported as an LRT if we extend the SSE to Sheppard. Otherwise slim chance. Its then a subway loop footprint we are planning with local LRT/BRT surrounding it. Very solid legacy for Scarborough once funded.

Honestly I get people are strongly against a plan with effective integration in Scarborough for many reasons. Some good reasons, most unfair, but its mainly cost and funding pulling to other areas of need because we haven't planned properly. But does anyone realize that this is an important issue to Scarborough and fighting is just going make elections more polarizing in the future? Overall support is large contrary to selective Star polls. Tory knows it. Ford knows it.

Lets optimize it the best subway extension we can and move on to funding the bigger picture. Its not just going to go away because other parts of the City want it too for there own gain. And the SSE wont make every other Scarborough transit project go away either. Funding and taxes will. Until then we are just beating the dead horse looking for segregated solutions.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Star has attacked enough to know their clear motive.

There's a point when we have to realize the cost to build a proper network and fund it and stop trying to patch in Scarborough. Do we need another election to get the same answer? Connect Scarborough with reasonably integrated design. Most don't care if the subway is on the surface for the most part. But building it to SCC does matter and so does designing to no add an extra transfer on Sheppard to many commuters. Time to move on from this epic RT fail. Sheppard East could be supported as an LRT if we extend the SSE to Sheppard. Otherwise slim chance. Its then a subway loop footprint we are planning with local LRT/BRT surrounding it. Very solid legacy for Scarborough once funded.

Honestly I get people are strongly against a plan with effective integration in Scarborough for many reasons. Some good reasons, most unfair, but its mainly cost and funding pulling to other areas of need because we haven't planned properly. But does anyone realize that this is an important issue to Scarborough and fighting is just going make elections more polarizing in the future? Overall support is large contrary to selective Star polls. Tory knows it. Ford knows it.

Lets optimize it the best subway extension we can and move on to funding the bigger picture. Its not just going to go away because other parts of the City want it too for there own gain. And the SSE wont make every other Scarborough transit project go away either. Funding and taxes will. Until then we are just beating the dead horse looking for segregated solutions.

If the TTC is trying to get out of this, we have a problem. If they don't want to do it, Tory is stuck. If they wont't pay, what do we do?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the TTC is trying to get out of this, we have a problem. If they don't want to do it, Tory is stuck. If they wont't pay, what do we do?

What makes you think the TTC is trying to get out of the SSE? Their comments about the cost overruns aren't anything they haven't said already.

 

[Palma]

The DRL would cost far, far, more, probably at least $10 billion.

The Scarborough subway is still needed, but more funding is required and the Lawrence East station needs to be readded.

No, it needs to be cancelled, all of it. This is insane. What i like about them now saying 2025 is it ensures it will never happen

 

[Dan416]

2025 is actually a reasonable time frame isn't it? These things usually take around 10 years?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

2025 is actually a reasonable time frame isn't it? These things usually take around 10 years?

"Around 10 years" is reasonable, yes. But detailed engineering work has yet to be competed, so exact timetable is impossible to know for sure. But the TTC has said since the one stop Subway was proposed that 2025 would be nearly unachievable. I'd wager that 2026 to 2027 will be the actual schedule.

Every year of delay adds something like $100 Million to the price, hence the urgency.

 

[Steve X]

2025 is actually a reasonable time frame isn't it? These things usually take around 10 years?

Without an EA and initial design work, anything can be up in the air. We still have funding problems, EA approval, TBM ordering, land acquisition and tendering to get through. The EA will take at least 2 years to be approved if it starts soon. This includes about 3 public meetings. It will take at least another year and a half to put a shovel in the ground after the EA process. If TTC actually goes with a P3 and tender the whole thing out to a consortium, it will take longer to tender as the consortium needs to do some design work. 5 years for construction is really pushing it considering TYSSE and Crosstown are taking significantly longer. Heck it takes 4 years for a LRT with little digging. It should really be 2.5 years for a surface LRT like Finch West. With everything approved and funded, Finch wouldn't even start till late-2017.

I don't expect any groundbreaking work will occur till late 2020. Late 2026 or mid 2027 is more likely opening date. Even the crosstown was planned for a 2020 completion was set to 2021 by the consortium at the time the project is tendered.

The figures are chosen are very optimistic and never correct. TTC has failed to deliver anything on time recently. TYSSE, Leslie Barns, streetcar overhead replacement, Line 1 ATC, etc. They should just told everyone the subway will open by 2028 with a possible $4.5B. Let's see if the councilors still prefer it over the LRT.