Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't really care about the costs of this anymore. The surface alignment will be cheapest, select that one, produce an EA for it and build it.

Amen.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

The main artery will be eglinton once it's done, not Bloor. Bloor is not the center of the city, you're thinking downtown. Even if the subway is built, it will still go south. LRT or the original Eglinton plan, would connect to the main artery as Y and E is the center of Toronto.

I also think that reaching Yonge Street from Kennedy will be quicker on Eglinton than on Bloor once all is said and done.

Not to mention that without any DRL, the only way getting on the Yonge subway would even be thinkable at rush hour is probably at Eglinton. (Doubtful, maybe at Eglinton after waiting for 3 trains to go by first. Bloor-Yonge is lost hope.)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I also think that reaching Yonge Street from Kennedy will be quicker on Eglinton than on Bloor once all is said and done.

Not to mention that without any DRL, the only way getting on the Yonge subway would even be thinkable at rush hour is probably at Eglinton. (Doubtful, maybe at Eglinton after waiting for 3 trains to go by first. Bloor-Yonge is lost hope.)

Yup. Will be easier to get on at Eglinton. The DRL should go to Eglinton, but in Toronto we wait until it's too late.

 

[Palma]

I don't really care about the costs of this anymore. The surface alignment will be cheapest, select that one, produce an EA for it and build it.

I remember tory saying that surface is still subway although i think he might have been referring to SmartRack when he first brought it up during the election. Well if surface is good enough for SmaetTrack why is it not good enough for Scarborough. After Eglinton West, subway on Spadina is not tunnelled but in a trench outside which to me is surface as it is totally grade separated and it remains outside for 3 stops to Wilson. I am not sure if after Wilson it is outside agin or not. Why the big deal if its put in the current RT, it will still be a subway

 

[syn]

Those lines are not reasonable comparable. The streetcar lines are more like our Ellesmere BRT or Eglinton LRT will be in the future which run as feed routes across the main artery.

It can hopefully be built cheaper on the surface. And yes it worth very penny to connect Scarborough Center seamlessly to the main artery of this City. And your numbers of $4-5 Billion is just a false estimate & more of the same mudslinging as no route has been designed yet to put number against aside from the just over 3Billion one stop which required deep tunneling. Which is why we are now exploring cheaper alternatives.

To you it is. The numbers and common sense say otherwise. $4 billion - $5 billion is a very reasonable estimate. Even at a $3 billion cost it's still a waste.

The Spadina Streetcar, as a 'feeder' line has greater ridership than the current LRT. Would it make sense for those traveling from the north and west to complain about having to make a transfer? Perhaps they deserve a subway too?

At the end of the day this comes down to people not wanting to make a transfer, which is really unbelievable.

I like the flexibility the current RT system provides, with relatively frequent stops. If the trade off is that I have to make a transfer to another vehicle (as people do virtually everywhere else in the system), it's a very small one.

 

[ssiguy2]

Just rebuild the curves and buy some Mk III trains and call it a day.

That's a pretty offensive comment. We are talking Toronto transit and hence rational thought is not appreciated nor will it be tolerated. Shame on you!

 

[coffey1]

The main artery will be eglinton once it's done, not Bloor. Bloor is not the center of the city, you're thinking downtown. Even if the subway is built, it will still go south. LRT or the original Eglinton plan, would connect to the main artery as Y and E is the center of Toronto.

Of course im thinking downtown... It's the main economic and entertainment core of the City and the subway is the main City transit backbone that feeds into it. For SCC to have the greatest success as a satellite growth node and be a more desirable locale would be seamlessly connect to downtown. The Xtown LRT to UTSC and SSE is much more effective for connectivity in Scarborough than any previous LRT plan. No matter what happens with Sheppard LRT/Subway it'll be a great useful and attractive network.

 

[44 North]

Just rebuild the curves and buy some Mk III trains and call it a day.

Doesn't even have to be MkIII, and we could do away with LIM if we chose to. There are probably over a dozen manufacturers that could make a vehicle to run on on the SRT's existing tracks with a 1:1 rolling stock replacement and switch to 3rd rail. Using double articulation as some metro systems use, I'm wondering if we'd even need to fix the curves at all.

Speaking of which, and on the other discussed topic about alignments of a Line 2 extension, does anyone think it could be a good idea to use the existing SRT corridor - but with a catch? Instead of using TRs, we replace the Line 2 T1 fleet with vehicles that can handle the theoretical tight curve from Kennedy to the existing Stouffville/SRT corridor. They'd still be the same dimensions as the T1/TR fleet, but these would have an open gangway with double articulation. I believe Stockholm uses cars with this capability. Like the T1 they may even be based off the BBD MOVIA line.

A Line 2 fleet replacement to fit the existing SRT alignment (or close enough to the existing alignment) would be much more affordable than building $Billions worth of new infrastructure.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Doesn't even have to be MkIII, and we could do away with LIM if we chose to. There are probably over a dozen manufacturers that could make a vehicle to run on on the SRT's existing tracks with a 1:1 rolling stock replacement and switch to 3rd rail. Using double articulation as some metro systems use, I'm wondering if we'd even need to fix the curves at all.

Speaking of which, and on the other discussed topic about alignments of a Line 2 extension, does anyone think it could be a good idea to use the existing SRT corridor - but with a catch? Instead of using TRs, we replace the Line 2 T1 fleet with vehicles that can handle the theoretical tight curve from Kennedy to the existing Stouffville/SRT corridor. They'd still be the same dimensions as the T1/TR fleet, but these would have an open gangway with double articulation. I believe Stockholm uses cars with this capability. Like the T1 they may even be based off the BBD MOVIA line.

A Line 2 fleet replacement to fit the existing SRT alignment (or close enough to the existing alignment) would be much more affordable than building $Billions worth of new infrastructure.

Now both of these are interesting ideas.

But the idea of tendering a vehicle to the specifications of our existing infrastructure is a preposterous notion in this city.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Of course im thinking downtown... It's the main economic and entertainment core of the City and the subway is the main City transit backbone that feeds into it. For SCC to have the greatest success as a satellite growth node and be a more desirable locale would be seamlessly connect to downtown. The Xtown LRT to UTSC and SSE is much more effective for connectivity in Scarborough than any previous LRT plan. No matter what happens with Sheppard LRT/Subway it'll be a great useful and attractive network.

Employers are still not going to move there though. It's downtown, or the suburbs for most companies. My point is Bloor won't be the backbone once Eglinton and the DRL are built. Truly Eglinton, should have been a subway from Pearson to Kennedy or STC. Would have solved a lot of problems.

 

[muller877]

The main artery will be eglinton once it's done, not Bloor. Bloor is not the center of the city, you're thinking downtown. Even if the subway is built, it will still go south. LRT or the original Eglinton plan, would connect to the main artery as Y and E is the center of Toronto.

Y&E is NOT the center of Toronto. Never was...never will be. The geographical center is actually pretty close to Yonge & Lawrence (just east of Yonge). The political center is either at Queens Park or City Hall. The business center is King and Bay. The medical center is College and University. The shopping centre is on Yonge between Bloor and Queen. Y&E is a bunch of condos and a couple of offices. And a future subterranean connection that those from Scarborough will use but not leave the fare paid area. I would not be buying a shop there in the hopes that the people from Scarborough will get off to buy your goods.

The reason why Yonge and Bloor is busy outside and inside is the number of offices and shopping options near the intersection. Yonge & Eglinton simply does not have this.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Could someone explain to me, why Scarborough needs three additional subway stations in its center?

Seems that Etobicoke Centre is more worthy of subways than Scarborough Centre, based on the above "proposed residential units".

 

[BurlOak]

Doesn't even have to be MkIII, and we could do away with LIM if we chose to. There are probably over a dozen manufacturers that could make a vehicle to run on on the SRT's existing tracks with a 1:1 rolling stock replacement and switch to 3rd rail. Using double articulation as some metro systems use, I'm wondering if we'd even need to fix the curves at all.

Speaking of which, and on the other discussed topic about alignments of a Line 2 extension, does anyone think it could be a good idea to use the existing SRT corridor - but with a catch? Instead of using TRs, we replace the Line 2 T1 fleet with vehicles that can handle the theoretical tight curve from Kennedy to the existing Stouffville/SRT corridor. They'd still be the same dimensions as the T1/TR fleet, but these would have an open gangway with double articulation. I believe Stockholm uses cars with this capability. Like the T1 they may even be based off the BBD MOVIA line.

A Line 2 fleet replacement to fit the existing SRT alignment (or close enough to the existing alignment) would be much more affordable than building $Billions worth of new infrastructure.

It is not just the curve radius (which is very tight at Kennedy and Ellesmere that is not so tight), but it is also the dimensions (height, width). The entire B-D subway would have to switch to lower vehicles to fit through the Ellesmere tunnel. That would reduce the capacity (likely) on the entire line just to satisfy one curve. Likely the addition of additional articulation that is needed to navigate tight curves would also reduce the capacity, and a narrower vehicle would likely still be needed to fit through the tunnel.

 

[Forgotten]

In other news, Vancouver will open the Evergreen Line by Christmas this year.

That's $1.4B for 11km, or $130M/km for fully grade-separated transit.

And by a coincidence, it is about 23 km from STC to Downtown - which works out to about $3.0B. Less than the single stop subway extension.

Assuming they work the bugs out of their technology right?

You forgot to mention the "trains" are less than half the size of our trains and in fact closer in size to our streetcars and the "stations" are nothing more than glorified open air bus shelters. Waiting out in the winter cold might be fine for minor league cities like Vancouver but it's the big leagues here.

 

[44 North]

It is not just the curve radius (which is very tight at Kennedy and Ellesmere that is not so tight), but it is also the dimensions (height, width). The entire B-D subway would have to switch to lower vehicles to fit through the Ellesmere tunnel. That would reduce the capacity (likely) on the entire line just to satisfy one curve. Likely the addition of additional articulation that is needed to navigate tight curves would also reduce the capacity, and a narrower vehicle would likely still be needed to fit through the tunnel.

Oh, whoops, those were two different ideas. Should've been more clear. The idea of using a Line 2 extension with double articulation rolling stock would naturally have an expanded/new tunnel from Kennedy to Ellesmer (since the trains would still be T1/TR subway dimensions).

The other one was using a non-LIM non-MkIII rolling stock for an upgraded (but still standalone) Line 3.

Assuming they work the bugs out of their technology right?

You forgot to mention the "trains" are less than half the size of our trains and in fact closer in size to our streetcars and the "stations" are nothing more than glorified open air bus shelters. Waiting out in the winter cold might be fine for minor league cities like Vancouver but it's the big leagues here.

But what about LRT? Even when fully grade-separated a 3-car train traveling underground on the Crosstown would have lower speed, lower acceleration, lower capacity, and lower overall efficiency than an 80m Skytrain. I'd argue Vancouver is more major league compared with that.