Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

Price update: Subway will cost $3.4 Billion, up $200 Million from $3.2 Billion. Previous estimates did not include financing. Prices are still subject to increase another 30% as we complete additional design work (approx $1 Billion), and further once we know the cost implications of the schedule delay.

We're now at $500 Million over the $2.9 Billion estimate from two weeks ago.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

No problem with the idea of having a subway to STC, but gawd, reuse as much of the existing alignment as possible.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Pretty sad, that even after resurrecting the LRT they aren't taking to Malvern Town Centre and terminating it at Sheppard. This simply makes it easy for Cho to campaign on the subway and a further extension on that (north to Sheppard).

Only because that would add another 200 million to the price. I agree with you though.

Price update: Subway will cost $3.4 Billion, up $200 Million from $3.2 Billion. Previous estimates did not include financing. Prices are still subject to increase another 30% as we complete additional design work (approx $1 Billion), and further once we know the cost implications of the schedule delay.

We're now at $500 Million over the $2.9 Billion estimate from two weeks ago.

Smh.


This + Sheppard = At least 7 billion if not 8 or 9 after final tally.

 

[salsa]

Seems like the lefties are blocking democracy by messing with the power grid...

Ben Spurr@BenSpurr
1 min ago
As Jennifer Keesmaat begins presentation on Scarb transit network, the power goes out at city hall.

If you're tired of hearing her continued defence of the indefensible then you didn't miss much. Instead I'll leave you with this 2013 statement.

“Based on the criteria that we have for great city building, looking at economic development, supporting healthy neighbourhoods, affordability, choice in the system, the LRT option, in fact, is more desirable. The LRT route would put nearly twice as many people within walking distance of a stop."

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think that TC was perfect (there was nothing in it for the Relief Line, for example) but it did a pretty good job at rationally servicing under serviced areas.

It was an inherently politicized plan that aimed to push an agenda. Starting with eliminating suburban subway expansion (which is why Sheppard East was priority #1 at the time). To deceptive lowballing (the initial estimate for TC was around $6 billion IIRC).

LRT would have been far more sellable if they had actually sought to relieve the things that people were complaining about. Like the transfers. They absolutely deserve the mess they have. The powers that be arrogantly dismissed those complaints as ignorance. Having paid for it at the polls, the new argument is critiquing "fairness".

Boggles my mind that despite putting LRT back on the table, they've not looked at restoring the cuts McGuinty made (extension to the heart of Malvern) or how to ameliorate the pain points (convert Sheppard to LRT).

Coffey1 may be vocal. And you may not like a lot what he says. Some of it is definitely over the top. But there's a lot of people who think like him. And they vote. They can be soothed and even convinced to go LRT by making the plan far more palatable. Especially now that suburban rail is on the table with Smart Track/RER. I honestly believe that. But instead of changing the conversation to how Scarborough residents can access downtown much quicker with a combination of light and suburban rail, it's become a conversation on how to save money by switching to LRT.....which to the average Scarborough voter, can easily be perceived as an effort to underspend. I would expect Josh Matlow and crew to be a bit more politically savvy...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Byford says costs of delays on the SSE are about $130 Million per year. So the delays in schedule will likely cost Toronto taxpayers $130 Million to $260 Million above the $3.4 Billion currently budgeted, for a total of $3.53 to $3.66 Billion. This still does not account for cost overruns of up to 30% that will be uncovered during detailed design, which is where the greatest cost escalations will originate.

 

[cplchanb]

one of the councillors just asked: "cant we just flip a switch and go back to LRT?"

Byford: "(gives technical reasonings why its not possible)"

In reality in Byfords head: "You are f_cking dumb, lady"

Facepalm of some of these councillors who live on dreamland. Leave it to the experts!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Coffey1 may be vocal. And you may not like a lot what he says. Some of it is definitely over the top. But there's a lot of people who think like him. And they vote. They can be soothed and even convinced to go LRT by making the plan far more palatable. Especially now that suburban rail is on the table with Smart Track/RER. I honestly believe that. But instead of changing the conversation to how Scarborough residents can access downtown much quicker with a combination of light and suburban rail, it's become a conversation on how to save money by switching to LRT.....which to the average Scarborough voter, can easily be perceived as an effort to underspend. I would expect Josh Matlow and crew to be a bit more politically savvy...

One slight problem with the ST/RER integration - fares - there are no indication GO wanted it to be cheap (in fact, everything points to premium pricing being maintained), and without that, people will default to local routes. For all the talk about local service, it's pretty clear from the discussion of late it being a half-hearted nod.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It was an inherently politicized plan that aimed to push an agenda. Starting with eliminating suburban subway expansion (which is why Sheppard East was priority #1 at the time). To deceptive lowballing (the initial estimate for TC was around $6 billion IIRC).

LRT would have been far more sellable if they had actually sought to relieve the things that people were complaining about. Like the transfers. They absolutely deserve the mess they have. The powers that be arrogantly dismissed those complaints as ignorance. Having paid for it at the polls, the new argument is critiquing "fairness".

Boggles my mind that despite putting LRT back on the table, they've not looked at restoring the cuts McGuinty made (extension to the heart of Malvern) or how to ameliorate the pain points (convert Sheppard to LRT).

Coffey1 may be vocal. And you may not like a lot what he says. Some of it is definitely over the top. But there's a lot of people who think like him. And they vote. They can be soothed and even convinced to go LRT by making the plan far more palatable. Especially now that suburban rail is on the table with Smart Track/RER. I honestly believe that. But instead of changing the conversation to how Scarborough residents can access downtown much quicker with a combination of light and suburban rail, it's become a conversation on how to save money by switching to LRT.....which to the average Scarborough voter, can easily be perceived as an effort to underspend. I would expect Josh Matlow and crew to be a bit more politically savvy...

I disagree. Toronto has almost no money. It only look like politicization but that's what happens when you don't fund transit, as is common on this side of the Atlantic.

 

[cplchanb]

Finally one of the testifying staff mentions time and its implications!
(Dont know the name) He mentioned that it would take up to 2 years to re-examine LRT and by then, its election time and the risks involved.
Unfortunately though, Counc. Mihvec is unconvinced....Chances are he wont even be in office when the report comes back.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Finally one of the testifying staff mentions time and its implications!
(Dont know the name) He mentioned that it would take up to 2 years to re-examine LRT and by then, its election time and the risks involved.
Unfortunately though, Counc. Mihvec is unconvinced....Chances are he wont even be in office when the report comes back.

The guy who said it was Lively. It's worth noting that the TTC's official statement on that has been that it would take 12 to 18 months.

 

[salsa]

Price update: Subway will cost $3.4 Billion, up $200 Million from $3.2 Billion. Previous estimates did not include financing. Prices are still subject to increase another 30% as we complete additional design work (approx $1 Billion), and further once we know the cost implications of the schedule delay.

City staff sold the 1 stop subway + Crosstown East package as "affordable" because no new money was needed. That's what council assumed. Bait and switch?

 

[bill r]

Respect doesn't matter - fairness does. But what is the indicator for it? Speed, frequency, sure - but mode? Not necessarily. What about population density? Efficiency of service? The amount of public subsidy required? Capital expenditure? Fairness has more than one dimension.i

AoD

After spending over $4 billion for SSE and LRT for central Scarborough, where is the equitable TTC service north of the 401 in Scarborough?

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

 

[TheTigerMaster]

City staff sold the 1 stop subway + Crosstown East package as "affordable" because no new money was needed. That's what council assumed. Bait and switch?

"No new money" is particularly ironic now that we know that the 1-stop extension will almost certainly exceed the $3.56 Billion budget of the original 3-stop subway proposal.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

After spending over $4 billion for SSE and LRT for central Scarborough, where is the equitable TTC service north of the 401 in Scarborough?

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

Instead of asking where, perhaps it would be more helpful to ask what is equitable service for that area in the first place. What does it look like? What can the area support in terms of ridership vs. cost? We don't ask ourselves how do we provide 'equitable' service to Stouffville using Toronto having subways as a starting point either. Context matters.

AoD