Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

Note that vehicle manufacturers use crush loads to define capacity. They essentially look at the volume of the bus, and the volume of the average person, and calculate how many people they can physically squeeze into the bus. These are not real-world operating conditions, unless you're Japanese. For example, with our LFLRV's, Bombardier's quotes capacity (crush) is about 1.5x the TTC's planning capacity. The TTC's planned capacity for our arctic busses is 77 people.

Maybe something like bi-articulated buses are required for BRT.

"Use of bi-articulated buses began in 1992, with vehicles manufactured by Volvo (chassis) and Marcopolo/Ciferal (body), able to carry up to 270 passengers. "

 

[cplchanb]

Maybe something like bi-articulated buses are required for BRT.

"Use of bi-articulated buses began in 1992, with vehicles manufactured by Volvo (chassis) and Marcopolo/Ciferal (body), able to carry up to 270 passengers. "

As with many great ideas that come from the lands beyond the great sea, unfortunately our draconian transport regulations forbid the use of this. This and also multi colour LED signs and most EMU/DMUs. But yea, in Europe bi articulated buses are used to good effect.

 

[BurlOak]

This has got to be the most ridiculous DRL plan I have ever seen. I encourage everyone to re-visit your post to admire it in all it's crayon doodle-filled glory.

Being in the Scarborough RT thread, this is not intended to replace the conventionally viewed DRL, but to solve the Scarborough transit problem.

Both the Transit City LRT and the B-D Subway extension actually do the opposite of relieving the Yonge Line. They just carry additional passengers to the Y-B station, leading to longer dwell times on the Yonge line (and B-D line too) as passengers attempt to transfer. This line is primarily intended to serve Scarborough (from Malvern to the NY border) and then shuttle riders to the downtown with minimal stops along the way. This actually does relieve Yonge to some degree by having fewer passengers transfer at Y-B. With an interchange with ECLRT, it would also siphon off some of the potential transfers at Y-E. Cost wise, this is also comparable to the Scarborough Subway Extension.

The DRL that is currently proposed will actually do very little in the way of relief if only the first phase to Danforth is built. It is also very expensive. At least north of Danforth savings can be realized by using cut-and-cover (to O'Conner) and/or elevated portions (along Don Mills). This would go up Don Mills (to Seneca) and relieve the Yonge line by actually catching bus riders on Lawrence, Sheppard, Finch, and Steeles before they reach Yonge.

This line actually accomplishes the best of both worlds.

• It has several stops in Scarborough all the way to Malvern (similar to the LRT, but even more to the west)
• It provides a continuous route to the downtown (similar to the subway)
• It is much less expensive than the subway

 

[cplchanb]

Its unfortunate that some threads in this forum are just dripping with toxicity. One can disagree but to label something as

" the most ridiculous DRL plan I have ever seen. I encourage everyone to re-visit your post to admire it in all it's crayon doodle-filled glory."

is most distasteful and arrogant. Regardless of whether you are a senior member (which is even more shameful) or a new member, for the majority of us, we are at best armchair enthusiasts, engineers and planners. If you are employed by companies and governments directly involved with the thread topic, feel free to constructively criticise and comment, but as with everyone please be respectful. If you are to dispute and rebuttal against a post, one should justify with a logical argument preferably with facts and figures. I just had a heated debate with a senior member a couple posts up in this thread today but at no point did either of us label our counterarguments as a "crayon filled glory".
Remember this isnt a Call of Duty forum where adolescents are rampant. I had hoped that contributing members be more mature with their responses and posts. Act like adults! (that is unless you really are an under 18 member.....)

 

[pstogios]

Why are we against polls and stats only when they don't support our narrative? If Ford and Tory are so right in public opinion then why don't they have more support? Also if the medias number one goal is to sell newspapers and television news then it would make sense that their motto must be "tell the people what they want to hear." But some here suggest the media is all left wing nuts. Maybe that is the result of their viewers and readers leaning left? If that is true, perhaps these polls are in fact correct.

Because he's paranoid.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If you read in my earlier arguments, Im not trying to debase the merits of LRT as a whole and specifically for what has already been planned. As I said, whats done is done and we should pull a Scarborough. I was taking issue with your justification for an LRT based on 2800/pph, when the rest of the world can live on figures 5 times its size and still give good service. Your term for terrible service is quite subjective.What is your definition of terrible? How does it fit in vs the universal definition of terrible BRT service? As the report that I provided to you concludes, BRT and LRT for the most part is smokes and mirrors politics and sales. Only if you reach north of 15-20000 pph will you start to really see the merits of LRT. If implemented properly with sufficient tech and traffic management, 3000pph should be a quite doable.

Anyways its getting quite OT....back to the Scarborough disaster.....

I think you're preoccupied with whether or not they can, than whether or not we should!

I was taking issue with your justification for an LRT based on 2800/pph, when the rest of the world can live on figures 5 times its size and still give good service. Your term for terrible service is quite subjective.What is your definition of terrible?

I'm basing this off observation of our other transit lines. People always complain about the bunching on lines lines 510 Spadina, yet that streetcar line would still have less crowding and less bunching than what you propose. I find it unacceptable for us to be spending dollars on transit infrastructure that we know will be ineffective and unreliable from Day 1. If we're not going to build it right, we're better off not building it at all.

And still, nobody has answered, why should we leave the people with Etobicoke with inadequate transit in order to appease Scarborough?

 

[cplchanb]

And still, nobody has answered, why should we leave the people with Etobicoke with inadequate transit in order to appease Scarborough?

I beg to differ. At least Finch LRT is green lit and planning is well under way with a clear direction...on the other hand scar. is still flip flopping back and forth with no end in sight. But arent they also getting Crosstown West looked into?

 

[BurlOak]

The current Spadina Subway Extension will shorten their trip to subway (Jane or Keele vs. Yonge - 6 to 8 km shorter).
They will get a SmartTrack station at Woodbine.
UP stop at Weston.
The grade-separated ECLRT West will help too.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The current Spadina Subway Extension will shorten their trip to subway (Jane or Keele vs. Yonge - 6 to 8 km shorter).

Trips in northwest Etobicoke usually go all the way south to Line 2, or they transfer at Wilson, or use the York U rocket to connect to Downsview, or use the 195 to connect with Wilson.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I beg to differ. At least Finch LRT is green lit and planning is well under way with a clear direction...on the other hand scar. is still flip flopping back and forth with no end in sight. But arent they also getting Crosstown West looked into?

Good? I'm not trying to gunk up transit planning everywhere because we can't get the situation straight for one project.

 

[ssiguy2]

After 8600 posts and no resolution there are only 2 things to take away from all of this:

1} All parties in Ottawa absolutely love Toronto because they can promise the city billions of transit dollars, get lots of votes for doing so, all the time knowing that in the end they won't have to contribute a nickel because Toronto will never spend it.

2} Torontonians do not have the transit system they want but do have the transit system they deserve.

 

[coffey1]

After 8600 posts and no resolution there are only 2 things to take away from all of this:

1} All parties in Ottawa absolutely love Toronto because they can promise the city billions of transit dollars, get lots of votes for doing so, all the time knowing that in the end they won't have to contribute a nickel because Toronto will never spend it.

2} Torontonians do not have the transit system they want but do have the transit system they deserve.

So deep.

 

[ssiguy2]

Never thought I'd say this but perhaps it's time to dissolve the TTC and hand it over to Metrolinx and Queen's Park.

The only construction projects underway right now are all from Metrolinx. If Metrolinx wasn't doing something then the Eglinton and GO rail improvements would never have been taking place as Toronto would be still bickering about what to do. City Hall has shown itself incompetent on the transit expansion file so maybe the province should just turn around and say screw it and build themselves. They can consult with the City but they are the ones making the final decision.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The only construction projects underway right now are all from Metrolinx. If Metrolinx wasn't doing something then the Eglinton and GO rail improvements would never have been taking place as Toronto would be still bickering about what to do. City Hall has shown itself incompetent on the transit expansion file so maybe the province should just turn around and say screw it and build themselves. They can consult with the City but they are the ones making the final decision.

I hope you realize that the Province has always had the power to do this. And in fact, they've threatened to do that with the SSE project. The TTC has nothing to do with this. They're just the operator.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I hope you realize that the Province has always had the power to do this. And in fact, they've threatened to do that with the SSE project. The TTC has nothing to do with this. They're just the operator.

That would have been the situation if they built the LRT as originally planned. It's less clear that will be the case with the "express subway," pending a new MOU. It could end up that Metrolinx operates the LRT (if they still build it) while TTC operates the subway (if they actually build it). I think Metrolinx has basically washed their hands of the subway though it's hard to dispute Metrolinx has a better construction record than TTC. Overall, things probably would be better off for the city if the province had ignored Rob Ford and stood by the LRT plan, but it would have been, you know, autocratic.

Technically the province has the power to do just about anything . they could have told the TTC to stuff it when Rob Ford killed Transit city and they could have decided the last flip-flop was one too many and they could pass legislation renaming Toronto "Bumbleburg," if they so chose. But it's not how democracy functions in reality (which is good, for the most part).