Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

scroll down to section the section on riderships around the world. Please elaborate on the claim that more that 2000/ph is ineffective. Sure buses will be pretty packed together anf system speeds wont be as optimal, but if Guangzhou can do it with 1 MILLION daily riders on a single line, 2800 people during peak hours is nothing. Its all down to traffic management and ROWs. I'm not trying to dismiss the merits of LRT but please dont dismiss the merits of BRT by shaping your facts and figures against it. And BTW, contrary to TTC, alot of those substandard and "ineffective" BRTs actually MAKE money for the system.

Well, if this is alright, I don't think that Toronto really needs any transit expansion beyond BRT:

 

[LNahid2000]

Well, if this is alright, I don't think that Toronto really needs any transit expansion beyond BRT:

lol when I was in Guangzhou my hotel room window faced this BRT and it always looked like this

 

[cplchanb]

I had a feeling you were going to bring that up. Yes that is a picture of gridlock as an extreme example. Lets look at a more conservative
approach from a more accredited source:

https://www.itdp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/More-Development-For-Your-Transit-Dollar_ITDP.pdf

I quote from Pg 20.

Even in its infancy "cities were slow to adopt BRT because they believed that its capacity was limited to about 12,000 people per peak hour per direction." That was in 1974. What factors are you assuming in your threshold?
No ROW? Jump lanes only? Mixed into traffic? only 5 min headways?

 

[Cobra]

"BRT" is a broad term that widely varies in implementation. BRT could be referring to simple curb-side bus lanes, a partially-exclusive ROW in median, HOV lanes on a highway, or 100% dedicated Transitways, like the York University line. These varieties of BRT all have different capacity capacities. The BRT that would have been on Finch West would be on the lower end of that capacity spectrum.

The Finch West Line is anticipated to move 2,800 persons at peak hour and peak direction. One articulated bus has a capacity of 77 people. To service the 2,800 people, we'd need bus headways of 1 min 40 seconds (approximately), and those busses would be running at crush loads. Dwell times at stations would be long, and bunching would be an issue across the service. Operating the BRT would be far more expensive than the LRT, as we need to pay for more operators, a larger vehicle fleet, more renewals of that larger fleet (the lifespan of a bus is half that of rail vehicles), and more maintenance. This line would be essentially impossible to run and manage at those headways, and provides zero room for future growth.

So, no, BRT could not provide adequate capacity for the demand on the Finch West corridor. LRT was the only realistic option to move those passenger loads.

Canceling the FWLRT would leave Finch West customers with inadequate transit in the name of appeasing Scarborough.

I think you missed the part where I also said in my #3 point that the Scarborough Eglinton Crosstown was 100% paid for and if city council got over themselves just that one time, the city could have raised the money to build Finch West with the Feds paying 50% of it. Revenue tools were already a topic back in 2012 so it wasn't an "if" but a "when" it would have happened. What a waste that now regardless of what happens, the city must raise that money for Scarborough and they a 100% fully funded, upgraded project.

I like Finch West LRT for the record, but Scarborough-Eglinton done right was higher on the list. Let's not forget that Finch West was neglected by both the TTC and the City as the Express Branch didn't exist for the longest time. Also, why aren't there reserved lanes for buses during rush hours?

Regardless I still support the LRT on the corridor, just pointing facts...same facts and measures being used to evaluate other corridors like Sheppard and Scarborough.

 

[salsa]

Approaching 8600 posts in this thread.....8599....

Sigh. This thread was started 11 years ago and here we are, still debating what is the best solution for Scarborough.

 

[coffey1]

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-s...end-mayor-john-tory-told-by-key-institutions/

Support from Scarborough Institutions. I agree we need to move ahead with the subway and stop the dumbed down divide. But that doesn't mean we can explore more options to seamlessly connect SCC. Just not another plan that continues with a transfer at SCC.

In the big picture the added costs to replace the 7 stop LRT with a 7 stop subway would be hardly worth the worry & would certainly bridge the divide and provide better service throughout. Its not perfect for Scarborough in that it involves a shutdown and the route is not all that central, still leave Sheppard with an bad LRT connection and for the areas outside Scarborough it costs a bit more the LRT. But... Seriously it would be fantastic for everyone compared to what we are fighting over.

I really hope we can move forward with the mindset to quickly improve the subway plan without further chaotic debates along side the Eglinton Extension to UTSC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think you missed the part where I also said in my #3 point that the Scarborough Eglinton Crosstown was 100% paid for and if city council got over themselves just that one time, the city could have raised the money to build Finch West with the Feds paying 50% of it. Revenue tools were already a topic back in 2012 so it wasn't an "if" but a "when" it would have happened. What a waste that now regardless of what happens, the city must raise that money for Scarborough and they a 100% fully funded, upgraded project.

I like Finch West LRT for the record, but Scarborough-Eglinton done right was higher on the list. Let's not forget that Finch West was neglected by both the TTC and the City as the Express Branch didn't exist for the longest time. Also, why aren't there reserved lanes for buses during rush hours?

Regardless I still support the LRT on the corridor, just pointing facts...same facts and measures being used to evaluate other corridors like Sheppard and Scarborough.

The decision in 2011 that Council was making was whether or not to
a) Cancel SELRT and FWLRT to build ECLRT underground
or
b) Build the LRTs as planned.

So within the context of those two options, Council made the right decision. There were no discussion of using other revenues to build FWLRT.

 

[coffey1]

you are kidding. The majority in Toronto want the scarborough 1 stop subway? They do not even want it if there were 2 stops. There will be no disaster in the next election. Then we can't believe the numbers for anything else then

The fact we are even forced to answer such a stupid divisive transit poll after all this time is what's really unbelievable.

We can hand pick all the numbers we want to fit any narrative we so choose. Both sides are guilty. Fully trusting any numbers coming from any Political party, political media outlet, political polling company is completely absurd

Yes the one stop subway is not a good plan. But. we've hardly had time to digest and propose any changes before the resurrection of the Transfer LRT spears came flying back out from those with no other suggestion. Much to some peoples disbelief the poorly designed transfer LRT is not good either.

We need a compromise.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I had a feeling you were going to bring that up. Yes that is a picture of gridlock as an extreme example. Lets look at a more conservative
approach from a more accredited source:

https://www.itdp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/More-Development-For-Your-Transit-Dollar_ITDP.pdf

I quote from Pg 20.

Even in its infancy "cities were slow to adopt BRT because they believed that its capacity was limited to about 12,000 people per peak hour per direction." That was in 1974. What factors are you assuming in your threshold?
No ROW? Jump lanes only? Mixed into traffic? only 5 min headways?

BRT on Finch wouldn't be impossible, it would merely be a terrible service, which is why the TTC and Metrolinx didn't recommend it. You yourself have conceded that bunching and travel times would be a problem on this BRT.

Now ask yourself this: why is it alright to deprive North Etobicoke of good transit solutions, to build Scarborough a subway?

 

[salsa]

The only reason to not re-use the entire SRT is if the Markham GO corridor needs the space for SmartTrack or GO-RER. Also, both the Ellesmere tunnel and the Kennedy curve need to be rebuilt so there may be some sense in abandoning the rail corridor alignment for one along Ellesmere or Lawrence. The elevated structure already exists from Midland to McCowan and the corridor is already secured to go to Malvern. For the $4B planned for the subway, we can do a lot better, as long as no foolish Councillors try to revive the Transit City LRT plan.

This has got to be the most ridiculous DRL plan I have ever seen. I encourage everyone to re-visit your post to admire it in all it's crayon doodle-filled glory.

 

[Cobra]

The decision in 2011 that Council was making was whether or not to
a) Cancel SELRT and FWLRT to build ECLRT underground
or
b) Build the LRTs as planned.

So within the context of those two options, Council made the right decision. There were no discussion of using other revenues to build FWLRT.

We can agree to disagree.

BRT
FWLRT was well within BRT threshold.

Montreal Pie-IX BRT
http://www.grif.umontreal.ca/RIF/contenu_pages/SRB Pie-IX_Rapport_22mai.pdf

• 14 km
• 21 Stations/stops (18 in Montreal and 3 in Laval)
• increased daily ridership projected of up to 70k additional riders on top of the current ridership

If Montreal can manage a BRT on Pie-IX boulevard, one of the busiest in the city, why couldn't the TTC manage a Finch West BRT?

Scarborough Eglinton Crosstown
That decision by council open the door to Ford's Subway, subway, subway rhetoric. Also, as of today, we're on the hook for at least $1B for either LRT or subway. The ridership was justified to build it.

The initial scandal?
Miller & Giambrone killing the TTC plan to rebuild and upgrade the SRT to get their "legacy" project built...at a higher cost.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It's a pity that Toronto invented ICTS yet others have run with it and this place screwed up its implementation with a pointless linear unupgradable route. And now ICTS is not good enough for some people.

What makes it better than LRT is that it's always off of the road and stops are at decent distances apart.

 

[cplchanb]

BRT on Finch wouldn't be impossible, it would merely be a terrible service, which is why the TTC and Metrolinx didn't recommend it. You yourself have conceded that bunching and travel times would be a problem on this BRT.

Now ask yourself this: why is it alright to deprive North Etobicoke of good transit solutions, to build Scarborough a subway?

If you read in my earlier arguments, Im not trying to debase the merits of LRT as a whole and specifically for what has already been planned. As I said, whats done is done and we should pull a Scarborough. I was taking issue with your justification for an LRT based on 2800/pph, when the rest of the world can live on figures 5 times its size and still give good service. Your term for terrible service is quite subjective.What is your definition of terrible? How does it fit in vs the universal definition of terrible BRT service? As the report that I provided to you concludes, BRT and LRT for the most part is smokes and mirrors politics and sales. Only if you reach north of 15-20000 pph will you start to really see the merits of LRT. If implemented properly with sufficient tech and traffic management, 3000pph should be a quite doable.

Anyways its getting quite OT....back to the Scarborough disaster.....

 

[Zach6668]

What makes it better than LRT is that it's always off of the road and stops are at decent distances apart.

LRT can be this.

 

[BurlOak]

I thought that LRT is more expensive than mini-metro, MarkII, etc. because the vehicles need to be crashworthy since they run in traffic. This makes then heavier and less energy efficient. Supporting elevated track structures also have to be stronger.