bill r
New Member
SmartTrack runs at 7 trains per hour.
Lawrence Bus station takes in 40 buses an hour.
SmartTrack is not adequate for the Lawrence bus catchment.
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Toronto Bloor–Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
SmartTrack runs at 7 trains per hour.
Lawrence Bus station takes in 40 buses an hour.
SmartTrack is not adequate for the Lawrence bus catchment.
robmausser
Senior Member
This was the worst thing to come out of David Miller's Transit City.
Prior to transit city the plan was to upgrade the SRT and extend it.
It didn't jive with Adam and David's plan for an LRT system, so they changed it.
The common retort is that the SRT "cannot" be upgraded due to some simple engineering challenges like we are trying to build a mission to mars.
The problems could be solved for less than the LRT or subway.
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...lect-of-scarborough-rt-is-shameful-james.html
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...nd-modernize-the-srt-says-transit-expert.html
Hopkins123
Senior Member
Plans change and evolve all the time. Originally there was only to be a stop at Brentcliffe on the Crosstown, omitting the Leslie stop and nothing at Laird; then the plans changed and now we're getting twice the stop coverage. 4 kilometres between Kennedy Stn and McCowan-Lawrence is a very far apart gap, unprecedented in entire network. If Lawrence is added back in, it's very probable so too will a Brimley Stn be included.
Yes, growth at STC itself by 2030 may be minimal but Scarborough as a whole is the part of the City where the most growth (the red dots) will actually be occurring. The Brimley-Danforth-Eglinton area, for instance is projected to see a lot of growth - more than worthy of adding in a station for. Downtown by contrast according to the map I sourced (http://torontoist.com/2009/03/futurist_toronto_in_2030_and_beyond/) will either see stagnation in growth or even population decline by 2030.
torontopeter
Senior Member
You are reading that map incorrectly.
The color of the dots refers to changes in the types of households than what currently exists in the area (i.e. red dots mean on a net basis more single-family dwellings are expected to be converted into multi-family housing units).
What is most important for this discussion here (sheer population growth and where that will be) is the large circles, regardless of colour. These indicate the main centres of population growth, irrespective of how this fits into the existing character of the area.
While Scarborough certainly has many large circles and is thus expected to grow in population, the predominant concentration of circles is still Downtown (and to a lesser extent, around North York Centre and the Sheppard subway). There just isn't that much concentration around Scarborough Centre; in fact, this node has zero of the largest circles.
This indicates that (a) transit investment should be targeted to other areas of the city (not because of an Anti-Scarborough Bias that our Trollmaster has created in his mind but because that's where the people will be), and (b) any transit investment in Scarborough should be distributed beyond Scarborough Town Centre (i.e. Malvern and other nodes north of the 401 have the largest circles on this map).
On this basis alone the 1-stop money pit of an extension of Line 2 to STC should be off the table. On a cost/benefit basis, it just doesn't provide enough transit to Scarborough to justify its exorbitant cost.
But let's not get too intelligent like that. Let's bring this conversation back to the Left-Wing Media Conspiracy Theory and the Scarborough Gets No Respect storyline.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The City is expecting the population of downtown to double by 2040, to densities equal to lower Manhattan. The growth elsewhere in Toronto and the region pale in comparison
coffey1
Active Member
I realize this & as I said I don't personally like the plan. A subway stop should go at Lawrence if the subway goes ahead in any form. The point was that there were other lines not being discussed in this plan that made the number being tossed around misleading
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I honestly think planning a mission to Mars would be less complicated than Toronto transit planning politics.
coffey1
Active Member
The current SRT is transit design from another universe
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BurlOak
Senior Member
The only reason to not re-use the entire SRT is if the Markham GO corridor needs the space for SmartTrack or GO-RER. Also, both the Ellesmere tunnel and the Kennedy curve need to be rebuilt so there may be some sense in abandoning the rail corridor alignment for one along Ellesmere or Lawrence. The elevated structure already exists from Midland to McCowan and the corridor is already secured to go to Malvern. For the $4B planned for the subway, we can do a lot better, as long as no foolish Councillors try to revive the Transit City LRT plan.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
So they won't spend $300 million to upgrade a line and station so their alternative is to spend $3 billion?
Spending $3 billion to save $300 million is math only Toronto could comprehend.
Until Miller got his greasy hands on the transit file with his "LRT or nothing" plan, the SkyTrain was suppose to be upgraded and turn into the Eglinton Crosstown. It would have higher capacity, be faster, more reliable, cheaper, and easier to build but the problem with SRT and subways for Miller is that they could be automated.
Miller's love of LRT had FAR more to do with his union allies than proper transit. Miller did everything to secure his union vote which meant spending huge sums on LRT and not grade separated transit because grade separated could be automated. Higher capacity, better reliability, higher safety, lower operational costs, less disruption, and not having to build a new maintenance/garage meant nothing to Miller.......screw the transit users, he wanted a system that guaranteed his re-election and nothing more.
Still, doesn't excuse why SkyTrain is not the obvious solution today.
Spending $3 billion to save $300 million is math only Toronto could comprehend.
Until Miller got his greasy hands on the transit file with his "LRT or nothing" plan, the SkyTrain was suppose to be upgraded and turn into the Eglinton Crosstown. It would have higher capacity, be faster, more reliable, cheaper, and easier to build but the problem with SRT and subways for Miller is that they could be automated.
Miller's love of LRT had FAR more to do with his union allies than proper transit. Miller did everything to secure his union vote which meant spending huge sums on LRT and not grade separated transit because grade separated could be automated. Higher capacity, better reliability, higher safety, lower operational costs, less disruption, and not having to build a new maintenance/garage meant nothing to Miller.......screw the transit users, he wanted a system that guaranteed his re-election and nothing more.
Still, doesn't excuse why SkyTrain is not the obvious solution today.
Palma
Senior Member
It's not full circle it would be a Political take over part way into the circle at an opportune time. The Mayor is warning council not to do it. Its a Political disaster of epic proportions heading into next election if they do this.
People wanted better, & weren't given anything better. Left/Right, Urban/Suburban... This will put all of us in the entire City back even further. The only motion for change should be to look at other subway alternatives. If the RT is upgraded itll be a somewhat expensive temporary solution costing us further money as this isn't going to end because the Left wants it to on their terms while turning a bind eye. Before im flamed by those you think I "speak for everyone" I never claim to whatsoever but I fully get the overall tone as its CLEAR to unless you chosen to bury head is buried in the sand. I can with say with full confidence this is going to be very ugly Politically on all levels but mainly Municipally if Tory is forced to revert to transfer LRT
Get the popcorn ready. Were about to find out.[/QUOTE]
disaster of epic proportions for who? I certainly will not vote for Tory if this goes through. polls have shown more support for LRT. Why do people here keep forgetting that
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BurlOak
Senior Member
I thought he was after a legacy. Just implementing the preferred TTC plan would not have been attributed to him.
Anyway, no doubt that that decision back in 2007 was a major factor for the transit fiasco that we are currently living in.
RyanM12
New Member
If the Subway ends up getting built, the RT corridor and Malvern extension could be reused for a Sheppard extension (either subway or LRT).
coffey1
Active Member
The polls you speak of are not only skewed, they are just an extension of your favorite Municipal Political Party. Take them for what they are.
The disaster will be next election when the divide shows its ugly head again since there have been no attempt to compromise & the media and polls have continued to run a narrative that likely doesn't resonate with the majority. Likely different from the attitude you have been led to believe. But ya keep following those polls.
The reversal to LRT will be a Political nightmare. And its not what the City needs to help move forward. We need a compromise and BETTER plans the both this little subway and the transfer LRT design.
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sixrings
Senior Member
Why are we against polls and stats only when they don't support our narrative? If Ford and Tory are so right in public opinion then why don't they have more support? Also if the medias number one goal is to sell newspapers and television news then it would make sense that their motto must be "tell the people what they want to hear." But some here suggest the media is all left wing nuts. Maybe that is the result of their viewers and readers leaning left? If that is true, perhaps these polls are in fact correct.