Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[dowlingm]

True the SRT failed to attract any development. Subways also failed to attract any development. Look at Kennedy, Warden, Main Street, Woodbine, Pape, etc. They were all the same for many years. Rosedale, Summerhill, Glencairn and Castle Frank are all on the surface or close to the surface.

I was thinking about this when walking along Danforth yesterday. One issue was that the subway runs north of Danforth Avenue, not under it or south of it. That makes it tough to connect directly to developments on the south side of Danforth such as the new build on Danforth west of Woodbine, where shadowing would be a less pressing issue, where in the case of Main Station puts it further from GO, and in the case of 504/505/506 and the former Coxwell car obliged streetcars to cross Danforth to terminate. Nothing to be done about it now and I'm sure there were reasons then, but it's a shame all the same.

 

[coffey1]

More importantly, it would be significantly cheaper than LRT, because you don't need to do major work on the Ellesmere tunnel.

Yes Cheap. And that's exactly what downtown politicos want for Scarborough. Don't worry about the poor alignment, the transfer, attractiveness, & inclusiveness. As long as its cheap so Downtown Toronto can take the money for it's own subway

Vaughan is lucky not to have to deal with this crap. And to think they have the only subway line that is a real head scratcher. At least Scarborough Center would be connecting seamlessly to it's own City's main transit backbone and have 3/4 of a million residents.

 

[smallspy]

I don't see why it shouldn't be on the table. The current signed agreement between the province and city is to convert to LRT and extend to Sheppard. However the city has suggested changing this to subway, and not going to Sheppard for $2.5 billion (not including rolling stock, as there is a small surplus of T1 equipment - however they still need to replace that in about 10-15 years). So why then not seriously look at the plan that costs 1/10th of the cost. And if the only stations that are needed is Scarborough Centre and Kennedy, then it gets even cheaper.

$190 million was far more than the tunnel. It also updated existing RT, and lengthened the existing stations.

Though also note the 2006 study concluded the tunnel didn't require an major rebuild, unless they converted to LRT (because of the higher vehicle height), just track realignment.

That $190mil didn't include the cost of extending the line to Sheppard or Malvern, which was to cost more than the extension of the line as an LRT. Nor did it include the new yard that would have been made necessary by buying more cars to service the longer line.

Yes, it was the cheapest option available at that time, but I still contend that in the long run it wasn't the most cost-effective.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[minilude]

I'm wondering, if after the Smart Track's outcome is finalized (15min or 5min, TTC fare or not), and we propose to build two LRTs in Scarborough, one on Sheppard corridor and one on Eglinton corridor ASAP (not after Finch LRT or fuzzy on Sheppard), and move the rest of the funds (if there is any left) to DRL, will this be supported by the Toronto voters? if chances are high, I think there should be a city referendum question in next city election's ballot.

 

[nfitz]

That $190mil didn't include the cost of extending the line to Sheppard or Malvern, which was to cost more than the extension of the line as an LRT.

True - but we've come to the conclusion that's not happening anyway - so that decision has already been made.

Nor did it include the new yard that would have been made necessary by buying more cars to service the longer line.

The plan discussed modifications to the existing yard to store more trains. It's not clear if the $190 million included that, or if it was part of the $170 million for replacing the rolling stock - but there's no indication that the costs were astronomical.

Yes, it was the cheapest option available at that time, but I still contend that in the long run it wasn't the most cost-effective.

No, that's probably LRT. But if there's no plan to go past Scarborough Centre - that doesn't seem to be necessary.

Yes Cheap. And that's exactly what downtown politicos want for Scarborough. Don't worry about the poor alignment, the transfer, attractiveness, & inclusiveness. As long as its cheap so Downtown Toronto can take the money for it's own subway

It's quite clear that the downtown subway is primarily for making space on the Yonge line, primarily for those who aren't downtown.

The bottom line, with the low population densities in Scarborough, compared to that along the Yonge corridor, there's more bang for your buck elsewhere.

However, as only a small fraction of trips in Scarborough are heading to or from downtown, then the best thing for those in Scarborough is a more local solution - like the Scarborough RT to LRT conversion.

 

[jaybe]

Yes Cheap. And that's exactly what downtown politicos want for Scarborough. Don't worry about the poor alignment, the transfer, attractiveness, & inclusiveness. As long as its cheap so Downtown Toronto can take the money for it's own subway

Vaughan is lucky not to have to deal with this crap. And to think they have the only subway line that is a real head scratcher. At least Scarborough Center would be connecting seamlessly to it's own City's main transit backbone and have 3/4 of a million residents.

I too used to be a booster for a Subway extension to STC. It isn't fair that Scarborough is so underserved by rapid transit in Toronto. That said, the STC is as far away from the core as Mississauga's Square One. It is a very long way. Further, the STC is surrounded by many km of low density housing and light industrial. The Vaughan extension is a bad idea that will likely be underutilized for decades and should not be a point of comparison here.

Cheap is not the most important discussion point.

The best transit options for Scarborough, a population less than Mississauga's, are to provide effective rapid connections to the core (Go RER) and create a network of rapid transit across the borough to satisfy the vast majority of transit trips that originate in Scarborough and end in Scarborough. So, the proposed Crosstown LRT extension to UTSC, the Sheppard East LRT and the concept to replace the Scarborough RT with an LRT (that has multiple stops in the STC area and can be extended to Malvern) are very good ideas. A one-stop subway to STC is costly and does relatively little to improve transit for the vast majority of Scarberians.

Finally, knowing that there are limited funds for transit improvements available, I'd like to see as much investment be directed towards a DRL. It should be the highest priority project in our city. A DRL to Eglinton will also improve transit for downtown bound Scarberians by providing redundancy and options to get into the core.

 

[coffey1]

I too used to be a booster for a Subway extension to STC. It isn't fair that Scarborough is so underserved by rapid transit in Toronto. That said, the STC is as far away from the core as Mississauga's Square One. It is a very long way. Further, the STC is surrounded by many km of low density housing and light industrial. The Vaughan extension is a bad idea that will likely be underutilized for decades and should not be a point of comparison here.

Cheap is not the most important discussion point.

The best transit options for Scarborough, a population less than Mississauga's, are to provide effective rapid connections to the core (Go RER) and create a network of rapid transit across the borough to satisfy the vast majority of transit trips that originate in Scarborough and end in Scarborough. So, the proposed Crosstown LRT extension to UTSC, the Sheppard East LRT and the concept to replace the Scarborough RT with an LRT (that has multiple stops in the STC area and can be extended to Malvern) are very good ideas. A one-stop subway to STC is costly and does relatively little to improve transit for the vast majority of Scarberians.

Finally, knowing that there are limited funds for transit improvements available, I'd like to see as much investment be directed towards a DRL. It should be the highest priority project in our city. A DRL to Eglinton will also improve transit for downtown bound Scarberians by providing redundancy and options to get into the core.

Vaughan - It certainly is a valid discussion. They ARE getting a subway built to the City Center for a population 1/4 of Scarborough's. So let's pretend it not happening.?
Mississauga - Agreed they're similar... Although they City takes much more pride in development attraction & im sure they wont have to ward off the Poltiical media barrage when there time comes. the biggestr differnece is this is the City Toronto & the TTC. Scarborough citizens pay taxes into & therefore should have some transit equity. Just like every other satellite business center/ City Center in the City is connected on the subway.
The Eglinton Crosstown - Agreed it's great. . But serves as a local network not a connection to the main backbone which should be in the City Center for many reasons.
You can choose to ignore the existing system of what other areas have in this City (not only subways, stops etc), choose to ignore the Vaughan subway. But it's reality. It's BS & the bias media goes Mum. And why are there limited funds? Because people/politicians refuse to pay for equality once they've got there piece of the pie. Even then they want more.

The visible optics & perception in Scarborough are already terrible. Segregating it's core unlike all many other areas within the City does nothing to assist. And there more than 3/4 of a million people here. The DRL should be funded and built but not at the expense of Scarborough's extension

But yes maybe we should just ignore what is going on & has gone on everywhere else and take the cheapest option to make the greedy outsiders happy.


.

 

[Jacob Laponointe]

Vaughan - It certainly is a valid discussion. They ARE getting a subway built to the City Center for a population 1/4 of Scarborough's. So let's pretend it not happening.?

The point of the Vaughan subway was to connect to York University, mostly; Vaughan got provincial funding for political reasons. I think that extension should have stopped at york U, the rest is unnecessary.

I'm not entirely against Scarborough getting a subway extension, but It seems incredibly wasteful to entirely mothball the RT, which could be extended and serve so many more people than a one stop subway would.

It's not really a cost thing in my mind however, I just see the potential to serve a much larger area with an RT extension than a one stop subway, which would actually serve fewer than the RT does now.

I would be in favour of upgrading the SRT, extending the platforms, replacing the trains and extending the line to Malvern via Centennial, with a better configured multi-modal hub at Kennedy that makes it easier to transfer to GO RER from the RT, which I think would be better for Scarborough residents heading downtown.

The subway is just going to continue to get more crowded, and the ride from Kennedy to downtown by subway is really long anyway. Based on distance to downtown, most people in scarborough aren't bound for the city centre anyways, and so they would be better served by a longer line with more stations.

 

[44 North]

The point of the Vaughan subway was to connect to York University, mostly; Vaughan got provincial funding for political reasons. I think that extension should have stopped at york U, the rest is unnecessary.

I'm not entirely against Scarborough getting a subway extension, but It seems incredibly wasteful to entirely mothball the RT, which could be extended and serve so many more people than a one stop subway would.

It's not really a cost thing in my mind however, I just see the potential to serve a much larger area with an RT extension than a one stop subway, which would actually serve fewer than the RT does now.

I would be in favour of upgrading the SRT, extending the platforms, replacing the trains and extending the line to Malvern via Centennial, with a better configured multi-modal hub at Kennedy that makes it easier to transfer to GO RER from the RT, which I think would be better for Scarborough residents heading downtown.

The subway is just going to continue to get more crowded, and the ride from Kennedy to downtown by subway is really long anyway. Based on distance to downtown, most people in scarborough aren't bound for the city centre anyways, and so they would be better served by a longer line with more stations.

Exactly, well said. My belief is that those in Scarborough wanted a subway so bad not because they didn't want an improved/expanded SRT. It's because nowhere else in the city got this mode. We have subways to some fields in Vaughan along the 150th busiest surface corridor, soon along a highway-like Yonge in Markham/Vaughan/Richmond Hill (the 30th busiest surface corridor). But this is odd, since the SSE debate proved that many in this city agree wholeheartedly that a fully grade-separated light rail system is optimal for the suburban realm in providing subway-like local service. So why the eff haven't we explored its use anywhere else?

We created a tiered system in transit modes, which in and of itself is fine. Most cities use a variety of systems, and many cities run these lines through less than optimal areas. But this schism was made much worse by a) neglecting the SRT, b) never including it as subway line and referring to it as "RT" (until recently with the change to numbering), and c) not building these systems anywhere else in TO - particularly in areas that actually warranted them.

Because of these things, the SSE debate was an inevitability that pols should've seen coming from a mile away.

 

[Cobra]

I believe lots of people are forgetting the other crucial reason why the subway to Scarborough passed the last council and was backed by very pro-LRT councillors like Mihevc.

There was a report highlighting how nightmarish shutting down the RT between 3-5 years would be for Scarborough. I mean this with the outmost respect...before someone says that's no big deal for those living there...get over yourselves.

Council wasn't indifferent to it, neither was the TTC who explained in details the extra costs it would mean for them and the logistic nightmare to accommodate all those people on buses. They would have to buy buses, hire more drivers and we can assume all the overtime that would be need to be paid and the gridlock within that area.

Digging the subway while the RT continues to operate makes sense.
If you combine ridership with this very fact, subway does make sense.

Smarttrack East makes no sense to me when the province will provide GO RER service. The cost of this project should go to make that extension 3 stops.

That subway should be 3 stops as originally envisioned. And I remember the province only have 2 scenarios for this extension anyways...
1-City funding=3 stop subway (Lawrence East, Scarborough Centre & Sheppard)
2-No city funding (which is what they are trying to do= 2 stop subway (Lawrence East, Scarborough Centre)
I believe they were clear it would be one or the other.

Previous quote

I still believe that STC has potential to be a dynamic and vibrant "Gate to the east"...the question is: Does Toronto has the audacity and will to rethink STC completely? As is, it's success it very much so limited.

Perhaps STC could be a transit hub, entertainment area while its downtown core for mix level high-rise development should be moved somewhere else like the McCowan-Sheppard area?

Sheppard Avenue East which already have lots of redevelopment projects and existing towers could emulate North York Centre's Yonge street. Yonge being the main artery for highrises and business while slowly expanding beyond that main street. This is a much more realistic model to follow for Scarborough. As long as they bank it all on the STC mall, it will be an utter failure...subway or not.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I just want something done this time. It doesn't matter at this point.

 

[nfitz]

There was a report highlighting how nightmarish shutting down the RT between 3-5 years would be for Scarborough. I mean this with the outmost respect...

Though if you go back to the original 2006 approved plan to use Mark IIa cars, they estimated 3 years for the LRT, but only 8 months if they went with the Vancouver Mark II cars (and moved the Kennedy station platforms.) But, as they went for the shorter Mark IIa cars, which required no major modification to the existing line, there was no significant shut down period.

 

[coffey1]

The point of the Vaughan subway was to connect to York University, mostly; Vaughan got provincial funding for political reasons. I think that extension should have stopped at york U, the rest is unnecessary.

I'm not entirely against Scarborough getting a subway extension, but It seems incredibly wasteful to entirely mothball the RT, which could be extended and serve so many more people than a one stop subway would.

It's not really a cost thing in my mind however, I just see the potential to serve a much larger area with an RT extension than a one stop subway, which would actually serve fewer than the RT does now.

I would be in favour of upgrading the SRT, extending the platforms, replacing the trains and extending the line to Malvern via Centennial, with a better configured multi-modal hub at Kennedy that makes it easier to transfer to GO RER from the RT, which I think would be better for Scarborough residents heading downtown.

The subway is just going to continue to get more crowded, and the ride from Kennedy to downtown by subway is really long anyway. Based on distance to downtown, most people in scarborough aren't bound for the city centre anyways, and so they would be better served by a longer line with more stations.

Name one transit line built in the GTA that wasn't funded for Political reasons? And your argument still involves Scarborough citizens turning a blind eye to the transit system built & being built around them.
The most underused RT stops in the ridiculous RT route are being covered by Smarttrack now. Malvern should still receive LRT and Centennial can be served by the Scar-Durham BRT. The subway should certainly have 2 City Center stops, and the Lawrence stop. But 1 stop seems to be the only way to get the outside political powerhouse to settle down slightly. But it wont last.
Most people in Scarborough aren't bound to downtown for one MAJOR reason - Because they are treated like mice in a shoe box when it comes to public transit. You either have to have the means to take GO and TTC together to get to your destination or suffer thru a long TTC commute with absurd transfers or you suffer through car traffic.

The SSE is only part of the solution alongside a local LRT/BRT network. But its a very important one as far as equitable intergation, optics, atrractiveness for quality development & for our elderly, disabled, & child commuters.

An RT replacement does nothing but save the outsiders money to keep feeding the beast. And that's the real issue.

 

[Edward Skira]

Name one transit line built in the GTA that wasn't funded for Political reasons?

Yonge/University and Bloor/Danforth are two.

 

[nfitz]

Yonge/University and Bloor/Danforth are two.

If the University subway hadn't have been built for political reasons, it wouldn't have up the middle Spadina expressway alignment. Even the selection of the original northern terminus of Eglinton was political - based on the old political boundaries.

And surely the Bloor-Danforth heading straight east-west, instead of running into downtown, was a huge political debate.