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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

You must have lived in a black hole - Malvern east of Morningside?

I'm lucky compared to most people in Scarborough - on a good day I can get to Kennedy station in less than 25 minutes or Finch station in 30 minutes. On a bad night, though, it might take over 2 hours to get home, so all these gains are for nought in the long term.
 
On Sheppard Ave east of Morningside it's 45-60min on 85 Sheppard East W to Don Mills and 50-60min to Kennedy via 85 Sheppard East W to McCowan + any SB route to STC + RT. Took me 2.5hrs to get to York campus @ Keele this morning thanks to the 401 closure.
 
It would have been quicker for you today to take the Sheppard bus the other way to Rouge Hill GO station, from there to Union, and up the Spadina line.
 
You must have lived in a black hole - Malvern east of Morningside?
Indeed. :) Actually, yes in Malvern about 3/4km west of Morningside. And the bus stopped right behind my house so it's not like there was walk-time to the stop in my travel time either.

I wish I could remember the name of the street that the bus ran on. Tapscott or McNicol perhaps. Just east of Mother Theresa highschool.
 
"I wish I could remember the name of the street that the bus ran on. Tapscott or McNicol perhaps. Just east of Mother Theresa highschool."

Sewells or McLevin. You could have taken the 131 or the 132 straight to STC; from there it's 10 minutes to Kennedy including the wait for the RT. I find it hard to believe the 131 or the 132 takes 45 minutes to get to STC...they'd be going at a real speed of about 8km/h. Or maybe I'm living in a bubble because routes I take like Midland average about 30km/h - only marginally slower than a car.
 
Yes, that was it. The Nugget 131. 132 never went there while I was living in malvern but I think the 133 used to. They used to change the route like every year on that bus. >: Nugget was a 22-29 minute trip to SCC (we used to time it as kids) + a 10-20 minute wait for the bus.
 
So the trip total you posted before should be reduced by 10-20 minutes - you can't include time waiting for a bus that runs on a schedule and stops "right behind" your house. You can only add wait times like those on return trips since subways don't allow you to time your bus connections.

That's another thing that bugs me about the TTC's current setup - they should have a rolling rush hour, if at all possible. Around 6, they start reducing bus frequency even though tons of people are just then getting to outer regions from downtown/wherever, sometimes causing huge crowds immediately post-"rush hour."
 
The problem too is that the afternoon rush hour is much more spread out, particularly in the outer areas than the morning. Of course, you have the students getting on the buses at the start of rush hour, then a lull before the commuters make their way home, which is noticably later than in Toronto or North York even. You've got to have more buses out to meet the crush loads that can come out of the schools, then they end up relatively empty.

Though it isn't a problem that creative scheduling couldn't help.
 
From: www.insidetoronto.ca/to/s...5188c.html
______________________________
Light rail better option than subway

Mar. 16, 2006

Re: 'Building subways in this town is always messy,' City Views, March 10 and 'Build subway for right reasons,' Letters, March 12.
The question we should be asking is this: if we have $1.6 billion to spend, as the rumour may be, then what is the most effective way to grow public transit in the GTA? The obvious reasons are: to get more people out of their cars, to reduce gridlock and air pollution, and to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, thus fulfilling our Kyoto commitments.

Transit usage has declined in Toronto since 1989, when we had 465 million riders. Since 1997, the problem has gotten worse, when provincial subsidies of 50 per cent of operating costs and 75 per cent of capital costs were cut off (remember when every bus and subway car had a sign at the front stating this subsidy?).

Why are so few cities in North America building new subway lines right now? Instead, more than 20 cities have installed light rail systems since 1980.

For the price of the Sheppard subway, we could have built 50 to 75 kilometres of light rail. For example, we could have built the Sheppard line above ground from Bramalea City Centre or Brampton GO to Pickering GO via Pearson Airport, and parallel to Hwy. 401. This would have gotten a lot more ridership almost instantly. For the price of the Spadina line extension, we could have built two north/south routes at least 50 kilometres in length.

The Spadina subway requires a population density of at least 300,000 people living within 1,000 feet from it to be viable. The Sheppard line had a daily count of 34,700 people on Oct. 22, 2003 when it was expected to carry 48,000. In contrast, the Yonge line carries 620,000 daily. Light rail is more conducive to the population densities of our suburbs, carrying up to 50,000 passengers per day with a construction cost of $20 to 30 million per kilometre.

We must have an open debate about the options. The TTC's Ridership Growth Strategy has been stopped in the city budget process and a recent fare hike will drive more people back to their cars or bikes. The obvious question is: will the building of the Spadina line to Steeles Avenue hurt ridership because fares will have to go up to subsidize it, thus driving even more people to their cars?

We the riders are still subsidizing the operation of the Sheppard line and will do so for many years to come. If Ontario does not reverse the funding cuts of January 1997 we may end up wrecking the rest of the system just to build Spadina.

M.R. Mostert
 
As a daily user of the R/T in the winter months (I bike the rest of the time), I have some observations that may have been stated already but not quite in the same context.

Yes, the R/T is over-crowded, obsolete and the coaches are worn out. Yes, something must be none and most forum subscribers believe as I do that a dedicated bus lane is not a real option.

As a user my main concern is what am I going to do for the 3 to 5 years the fix will take? Will I be forced onto busses driving on already over-crowded arterial roads?

Bottom line: Bite the bullet and avoid a transfer at a troubled Kennedy station: The subway or no way!
 
"The Spadina subway requires a population density of at least 300,000 people living within 1,000 feet from it to be viable."

Says who? The majority of riders will arrive by bus or car or will travel up to York U. How many people live near Warden or Wilson station?

"Will I be forced onto busses driving on already over-crowded arterial roads?"

Both Midland and Brimley can handle express buses as neither of them ever sees traffic jams between Eglinton and Ellesmere (Kennedy is a write-off, and I don't travel on McCowan/Danforth enough to know one way or the other). A bigger problem would be turning left from Eglinton - I think they may have to run a bus lane through the hydro corridor, which shouldn't be hideously expensive, it just needs a ramp over the rails and possibly over Midland (if it goes up Brimley). Express buses + GO improvements can effectively take over the RT's role during reconstruction, especially considering, no matter what happens, some will be driven away to other routes or cars for the duration. Some local routes can just continue straight on to Kennedy station, too, and they wouldn't necessarily take longer if they didn't stop in at STC.
 
Says who? The majority of riders will arrive by bus or car or will travel up to York U. How many people live near Warden or Wilson station?

I think the Spadina line is something we should avoid. Warden is the only stations for a long ways in each direction. Even the low density sections of the 905 could have a few average ridership stations if you only have a few. However subways cost money to build over long distances and take longer to travel between far spaced stations. You are much better off financially (capital or operating) having 5 stations with 30,000 people in 2 miles than 1 station with 40,000 in 2 miles. We may get more riders by extending the Spadina line further but it will become even more costly to operate (including former costs of bus lines).

The figure of 300,000 is an arbitrary cut-off. With 905 commuters it will take a lot more people to make a profitable subway line, than with an urban transit using population. An interesting TTC graphic to look at is the number of people using the subway that live within a kilometre radius. Suburban stations have about 3 x less riders per capita as urban areas. Imagine if walking and biking were added to the mix. Downtown stations have the highest percentages but that is because of the office jobs and so is in a different category (jobs/residents).
 
Out of all types of transit, subways work best. Although I do like streetcars, I will use ttc if I can use a subway. If I need to take a bus, forget it. The LRT should be replaced by a subway, even though they are exspensive. (they're worth it)
 
TheStar - Aging transit line faces 3 choices

A study to be made public today has narrowed the choices for replacing the aging Scarborough Rapid Transit line to three options, costing anywhere from $350 million to $1.2 billion.

But one Scarborough councillor is already saying the recommendations don't go far enough.

Consultant Richard Soberman's study has rejected what was touted at one point as the cheapest — and probably least popular — option.

That would have replaced the SRT with a buses-only expressway, but the study concluded buses simply couldn't handle enough passengers.

Soberman's conclusions will be presented this evening at a public meeting at Scarborough Civic Centre, but details have been given to TTC commissioners and Scarborough councillors Glenn De Baeremaeker and Brian Ashton.

The SRT — which is now so crowded that Toronto Transit Commission routes actually divert passengers from it — is due to reach the end of its expected life by 2015.

According to De Baeremaeker and Ashton, Soberman's analysis boils the choices down to three:

- For $350 million, the TTC could replace existing SRT cars with larger, newer ones. Existing stations would have to be expanded to handle the longer trains, but except for reshaping one curve, the existing track would remain. In theory, the whole job would take eight to 15 months.

The new cars could move about 10 per cent more riders than the existing SRT, which moves about 4,100 passengers an hour in one direction at peak periods.

- For $490 million, the TTC could construct a "light rail transit" line or LRT on the existing SRT route. The LRT cars are essentially the same as Toronto streetcars.

On a dedicated LRT line they could be assembled into trains of three or four.

It would take about three years; the biggest job would be raising the height of the tunnels the line runs through to accommodate the taller LRT cars.

Capacity is about double the existing SRT.

Because it's a conventional streetcar, the LRT could connect directly with a network of streetcars running along city streets.

- For $1.2 billion, the TTC could tunnel a new subway. It would have to follow a different route to Scarborough Town Centre than the SRT, because subways can't turn the same tight corners.

A subway carries by far the most passengers — seven or eight times more than the SRT. Extending the subway also means passengers don't have to climb three sets of stairs or escalators to get to the SRT.

But a subway takes the longest to build, about nine years from the decision date.

In addition, a subway doesn't stop as often as do light rail vehicles. A subway would stop only once between Kennedy station and the Scarborough Town Centre, at a new Lawrence station.

Soberman wasn't asked to study how to pay for the new service.

The study doesn't contemplate extending service beyond the current end of the SRT at McCowan station, just east of Scarborough Town Centre.

That irks De Baeremaeker, who wants the subway extended into northeastern Scarborough, and ultimately looped with an extended Sheppard subway line.

"I'm going to be there Monday night pushing the subway right out to Malvern," he said.

The TTC will have a chance to make a decision that will benefit riders for the next century if it thinks big enough, he said.

Ashton struck a more cautious note. One way of looking at Soberman's analysis, he said, would be to pick one of the less costly options.

Scarborough councillors could then say: "OK, we're prepared to accept we don't want a subway that would cost $1.2 billion. We're prepared to take an option that costs $350 million, but you owe us the difference in other improved transit within Scarborough."

Source: www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs...8332188492
 
Take the BD subway to STC, and Sheppard to Kennedy. I'd love to see more subway in my hometown Scarborough but anything beyond this can wait a decade or two. I'm against overextending the subway (e.g. VAUGHN) just because the politicians will put up the money, because of the opportunity costs.
 

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