News   Nov 22, 2024
News Roundup for November 22, 2024
 224     0 
News   Nov 22, 2024
Front Street Night
 316     0 
News   Nov 21, 2024
KingSett Proposes 67-Storey Tower on Yonge South of Wellesley Station
 2.3K     6 

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

I said some time ago that the BD should be built up to Sheppard & McCowan where a rough in station is built below the McCowan line for the Sheppard line with stations at current cross roads and STC.

A rider would save 10 minutes or more by using the BD-MC line compare to using the SRT. There would be no need to change to or from Buses/SRT at STC and SRT/SUB at Kennedy. Also, they will not have to stand on platforms where they have to deal with the weather like they do now on the SRT.

Building the Sheppard line to STC was a poor design and it does not address the needs for true cross-town lines in the northern parts of Toronto. In time, the Sheppard line can be built further east of McCowan. The missing link between Yonge and Downsview station needs to be build before the Sheppard line is, to take some of the load off the Yonge line since the U/S line has low ridership now where every other train is short turn at St Clair West station during the day.

Eglinton line would be the midtown line.

Kennedy station will have to be rebuilt for the extension.

I know I will be doing a report to go before TTC when the study for the SRT is completed and it will not be looking at just subways as it will include LRT's also and BRT's (ugh, but some routes is all it can support).

Dave
 
My ideal solution would take into account the length of time it takes to build a subway, especially given the EA and engineering plans before a shovel enters the ground, while acknowledging the short remaining lifespan of the SRT.

The EA is approved for the Sheppard subway to Victoria Park - get that started immediately. As well, put in bus only and/or queue jumps with special white bar signals for buses, and boost the 190 to every 5 minutes in peak, 7-8 off peak, 10 min later evenings.

Next, get moving on the B-D subway phase I to Lawrence and McCowan or Lawrence and Brimley (where there can easily be a large bus terminal, park and ride) as the Sheppard line extension to VP is nearing completion.

Once the VP extension and the 190 improvements are complete and the B-D ready to Lawrence, shut down the SRT and abandon the alignment, perhaps offering the space to GO for improved Stouffville service. Now run a frequent shuttle bus service (with stops only at Ellesmere and SCC) to SCC, and an 190-series bus to Malvern via Markham Road to help compensate. This could be done by 2008-2009.

Then the extension of B-D and Sheppard can go ahead, but at a somewhat less urgent pace.

This solution isn't perfect, but it should address the needs given time and money constraints.
 
"A significant chunk of the RT's ridership can easily be accommodated by existing routes - the 4 routes I mentioned above are all typically at half capacity, at the most."

*Jaw hits ground*

You seriously think that a mix of different routes would be able to even compare to a four-car crush-load train running every 3-4 mins carrying 44,000 people daily? That works out to about a bus every minute. Brimley only runs every 20mins during rush. Some serious service improvements would be required even if those buses are half empty, never mind trying to offer a decent service for those passengers who would have to deal with this issue.

"if the extension goes through Midland & Lawrence, there's room to create a cluster of 12-15 towers"

But there isn't at Lawrence and Brimley or Lawrence and McCowan? At least McCowan would also serve Scarborough General Hospital.

"By building a subway to replace the SRT, they'd simply need to continue past Scarb. Town Center and link up with Sheppard. I think this will be the likely choice when this study
reveals its results."

2012: "Attention passengers at Don Mills station. Your train is delayed due to an injury at track level at Kipling station".

If it didn't make sense to interline BD and Yonge subway lines, it certainly doesn't make sense to interline Sheppard and BD. The number of people who travel from the BD to points along Sheppard could probably be counted on one hand.
 
"they'd simply need to continue past Scarb. Town Center and link up with Sheppard. I think this will be the likely choice"

Link up as in intersect or link up as in become one continuous line? The former is a good idea but the latter is a silly idea, very silly indeed.

"You seriously think that a mix of different routes would be able to even compare to a four-car crush-load train running every 3-4 mins carrying 44,000 people daily?"

I wasn't implying that existing bus routes could totally replace the RT..."significant" maybe wasn't the best word. I was just implying that replacing the RT in the network while it is rebuilt may not be so hard. Of course some sort of express bus would be needed to shuttle them from Kenendy to STC. Tons of people would switch to the Yonge line or to cars...but I think they'd be easily won back to a subway extension once opened. I could easily switch from the RT to the Finch bus and so could many others.

And describing the RT's crowds as "crush loads" is misleading. Overall, it can be quite crowded, but its loads are never balanced and while you may not even get into the first car, you might get a seat in the 3rd car if only you'd just walk 20 metres down the platform (but no one does because the escalators at both Kennedy and STC are at the front of the train), and just like the Yonge line, there's room for many more people but this space is never used because we don't like touching each other. The theoretical capacity is reduced so much by our laziness and our need for comfort zones.

"That works out to about a bus every minute. Brimley only runs every 20mins during rush."

Brimley, Midland and the Nugget Express each run every 10 minutes or better during rush hour, and the Brimley and 131E, in particular, usually leave Kennedy station maybe 1/3 full...there's room for thousands more on these routes over the course of a day without adding a single bus, something to consider.

I guess significant is an appropriate word because if they do design some express buses to connect STC to Kennedy during construction, the difference between needing to accommodate the full 44,000 riders and, say, 22,000 riders might be significant in terms of what options are feasible - the 190 should be approaching 8000 riders a day and it only comes every 10 minutes. On the other hand, it's possible that even with alternate routes available, most people might prefer a special express route. You wouldn't even need bus lanes on Midland or Brimley - there's no traffic on either road so the express buses would be only marginally slower than the RT. A bus lane on Eglinton would be needed, maybe, or some way to make the left turns easier.

If they're gonna replace the RT, they absolutely must improve GO service on the Stouffville line first. The RT can be deserted outside of rush hour - most of its users are commuters, many of whom live close to the Stouffville line and would switch to GO if it came more than 5 times per day.

"But there isn't at Lawrence and Brimley"

Well, no, not so much. Unless they rezone Thomson Park and bury the Hydro corridor and buy out all the nearby subdivisions, although there are a couple of strip malls. There's acres of empty land at Midland & Lawrence in addition to about 8 towers and a far busier bus route. You could build the station and a bus bay and a parking lot very easily at Brimley, but almost nothing else.

"or Lawrence and McCowan?"

That's one route option I always forget about - the Kennedy platform is already east/west so you could continue along Eglinton, have a stop at Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth, run up Danforth/McCowan, have a stop at McCowan & Lawrence, then up McCowan to STC. It just seems awkward approaching STC from the west, especially if you want to continue B/D north/east to Sheppard or Markham. I'm sure there's a detailed route map plan around somewhere.

I still prefer a route that closely follows the RT's path, but a subway extension along McCowan would be a good option and have many benefits, including being farther east to connect with buses quicker, which is important since the Lawrence bus dumps many people onto the RT. In the short term there's little room for redevelopment at McCowan and Lawrence, whereas there's room right now for a bunch of towers at Midland, if redevelopment becomes a key factor in whether or not the line gets built as it seemed to do with the Sheppard line.
 
"The theoretical capacity is reduced so much by our laziness and our need for comfort zones."

You are quite right about the 'laziness' factor (though I wonder if it's as much laziness as it is ignorance), but comfort zones is something that isn't going to change and you must work with... changing that to increase capacity is as likely as telling everyone to lose weight to increase capacity.

Apparently (so the story goes) when they went to figure out the crush loads for the subway cars, they rounded up all the factory workers and got them to pack in to the cars. Since everyone at the factory knew each other, they were far more willing to get closer together, making the crush load number to be inflated.

"On the other hand, it's possible that even with alternate routes available, most people might prefer a special express route."

I think it's not just the idea of an 'express' route that sells people on the idea, but the idea of a 'designated' route. Basically, a single route that people know will get them to their destination (Kennedy) quicker, more direct, more reliable, and more frequent than any other route. People want things to be simple and reliable. It doesn't even have to be a physical route, it could simply be a designated bus bay at STC and Kennedy stations where routes are "trunked" between the two points and then branch off after STC.

"You wouldn't even need bus lanes on Midland or Brimley - there's no traffic on either road so the express buses would be only marginally slower than the RT. A bus lane on Eglinton would be needed, maybe, or some way to make the left turns easier."

Yeah, that's basically what I was originally getting at. If we expect to see a doubling or tripling of the number of buses travelling between these points, what priority measures can we expect to see implemented? The last thing we need is a traffic jam on Eglinton consisting completely of buses.

"If they're gonna replace the RT, they absolutely must improve GO service on the Stouffville line first. The RT can be deserted outside of rush hour - most of its users are commuters, many of whom live close to the Stouffville line and would switch to GO if it came more than 5 times per day."

Bingo. Lots of people have been saying this for many years. There are few structural things preventing improved service on this line, basically only the level junction with the York Sub near Unionville station. Once that is separated, it could even be feasible to buy a couple Talents (the ones used on the O-Train in Ottawa) and use them to shuttle back-and-forth between Kennedy and Mount Joy outside of rush hours.

"You could build the station and a bus bay and a parking lot very easily at Brimley, but almost nothing else."

If there's room for a bus bay and a parking lot, then there's room for intensification.

"I'm sure there's a detailed route map plan around somewhere."

That's the thing. I really don't think there is.

"if redevelopment becomes a key factor in whether or not the line gets built as it seemed to do with the Sheppard line. "

Personally, I don't put any weight in to redevelopment as being important for subway construction. People have studied this and basically the conclusion was that it doesn't matter, subways should be built to follow demand, not precede it. Redevelopment is not guaranteed following construction, and even then if it does occur it will occur no matter where you build it. In the end, it isn't origins that matter when it comes to building successful subway lines, as origins are ubiquitous. What matters are destinations.
 
All the TTC will have to do is reroute all buses then run to STC, down to Kennedy instead.

That would mean 133, 131, 134, 129, 130, 139, etc. All those buses would continue on to Kennedy.

Infact, except for serving the mall, most could even bypass STC, and just run to Kennedy.
 
"(though I wonder if it's as much laziness as it is ignorance)"

99% of people on the RT know that the escalators are at the east end of both stations and don't move on down to other parts of the train; the same thing happens on the Yonge trains northbound at Bloor. Sometimes there's no time to move down, but usually it's pure laziness - closer is better.

"but comfort zones is something that isn't going to change and you must work with... "

Comfort zones are much smaller elsewhere in the world. I'm not saying crushed crowds like Indian trains could be achieved, but with time and 'prodding' (not necessarily physical) I'm sure more people could comfortably fit on existing trains and buses.

"If we expect to see a doubling or tripling of the number of buses travelling between these points, what priority measures can we expect to see implemented? The last thing we need is a traffic jam on Eglinton consisting completely of buses."

Long left turn signals would be a start - there are none currently (I think). You'd only need something to make the left onto northbound Midland at Eglinton and the left onto southbound Midland at Progress...Midland itself is devoid of traffic because there's no 401 interchange and it doesn't continue into Markham. There's already bus traffic jams on Eglinton - six routes travel as far as Brimley. Very often there's buses from 3 or 4 routes all convoying along Eglinton or trying to pass each other. A few weeks ago they were paving the ramp that goes down to the station, forcing buses to turn left on Kennedy instead of taking the ramp. There were 11 buses ahead of mine waiting to turn left and within a minute another 5 or 6 piled up behind.

"I think it's not just the idea of an 'express' route that sells people on the idea, but the idea of a 'designated' route."

That's why I said "special" express route.

"There are few structural things preventing improved service on this line, basically only the level junction with the York Sub near Unionville station."

Some of the level crossings at Sheppard, Huntingwood, Finch, McNicoll, Passmore, Steeles, Kennedy, Denison, & 14th are also begging to be turned into over/underpasses.

"If there's room for a bus bay and a parking lot, then there's room for intensification."

The "room" is the hydro corridor, good for bus bays and parking lots but not much else unless they bury the wires.

"Personally, I don't put any weight in to redevelopment as being important for subway construction."

Mel Lastman and Greg Sorbara did. Demand seems to be secondary to development opportunities and politics otherwise we might have lines along Eglinton, Don Mills, Yonge north of Finch, downtown relief line, etc., instead of Sheppard or York University.

"In the end, it isn't origins that matter when it comes to building successful subway lines, as origins are ubiquitous. What matters are destinations."

But isn't an origin in the morning a destination in the afternoon?
 
New transit plan sought in Scarborough
DAVID NICKLE
09/23/05 00:00:00
The looming demise of the Scarborough LRT is spurring transit officials to come up with a completely new rapid transit plan for the city's east end.
On Wednesday, Toronto Transit Commissioners voted to spend $136,815 on a consultant to map out a new plan for moving Scarborough transit riders to and fro.

The Scarborough LRT, an elevated train that moves riders between Kennedy station and McCowan and Ellesmere, has since 1978 been the primary rapid transit mover through the region.

However, the cars on the line are aging and transit officials have been unable to find affordable replacements.

According to chief general manager Rick Ducharme, that means that the TTC will have to start looking at other options.

"We don't have to do this for about 10 years, but why are we waiting?" Ducharme said.

"We should make it known that we have a really good plan and not wait until something happens and we have no service."

'No service' is one option not on the table.

BUSY ROUTE

The Scarborough LRT, despite its miniature cars and aging infrastructure, remains a heavily-used route.

It is so well used that the TTC has had to run parallel bus routes to accommodate the overflow.

The consultant, Richard Soberman, will be looking at four general options:

- The replacement of the existing SRT with bus-based or surface-based alternatives, either in mixed traffic or in reserved lanes or in some combination;

- Maintaining the existing route by acquiring newer vehicles that are currently ill fitting on the existing LRT tracks;

- Converting the exiting LRT route into a busway, or using vehicles similar to new streetcars produced by the TTC;

- Extend the Bloor Danforth subway.

Ducharme said the plan will go further than that ultimately, looking at all of Scarborough's transit needs, which he acknowledges are not being met currently.

"We have to do something," he said.

"We're over capacity now - you can't ignore it and it's not going to get any better. We have to provide service to the people there and right now it's not being provided."
 
The Scarborough LRT, an elevated train that moves riders between Kennedy station and McCowan and Ellesmere, has since 1978 been the primary rapid transit mover through the region.
Click to expand...
1978? I thought the RT came around later than that.
 
I think it opened in 1987 or so -- I remember we had a school trip just to be there for the opening, and ride it. In retrospect, busing kids in for photo ops seems really communist.
 
1985, to be specific. (Very much of the "Back To The Future" era...)
 
Also a great line in that article about the "streetcars that the TTC produces." Where's that streetcar factory, again?

Scarborough needs so much more than a revamp of the LRT. The transit situation out here is just woeful. The TTC setup treats it as a remote outpost. I find it unendingly frustrating.

I'm not familiar with the upper reaches of Scarborough, but from where I sit - at the extreme south - Kingston, Eglinton, and upper Kennedy seem to be crying out for higher-order transit. It almost seems like a validation they're missing - we have our transit theme park downtown, and the rest of y'all can make do with busses.

Scarborugh is crawling with people, and while I'm speaking from a position of ignorance, I would be mightily surprised if the ridership wouldn't be there if the political willpower was...
 
"The TTC setup treats it as a remote outpost."

Well, parts of Scarborough are really out there - if the 42A started at Finch station and went north, it would terminate in Aurora...but still get there before the 42A along Lawrence even got to the RT. One of these days I need to ride the Steeles West bus out to Martin Grove and then take that bus down to the subway just so I can fully sympathize with Rexdalers.

"Scarborugh is crawling with people"

Wikipedia says it hit 650,000 this year, and it's filling up fast. One of the last working farms in Toronto is up for sale for development near my house. Yes, I live a 10 minute walk away from a farm. There was also an apple orchard 10 minutes walk away in a different direction but that was replaced by a Wendy's/Tim Horton's combo and a Chinese church.

"and while I'm speaking from a position of ignorance, I would be mightily surprised if the ridership wouldn't be there if the political willpower was..."

I'm just mad that Graydon Hall has better service than Brimley during the day even though it has 1/3 the riders and it triplicates service along York Mills. Graydon Hall buses never turn people away because of crowds but Brimley buses sometimes do. I guess there aren't enough old white people left here to spur improvements via complaints.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top