TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Don't forget about those $0.97 cups of coffee. I'm sure they could build a few subways as well
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Don't forget about those $0.97 cups of coffee. I'm sure they could build a few subways as well
Electrify
Senior Member
We should not forget that if we want to be REALLY fiscally sound, we could have always bought new trains for the current ART line rather than mothballing it or spending billions to allow a slightly different rolling stock to operate.
At this point, we should be giving credit where credit is due: Karen Stintz. Ford should not be taking any credit for this, with the exception of being a high school cheerleader for subways, subways, subways. Stintz was the one who lobbied for the line and the money and taxes to pay for it. If Ford was the one who crafted this subway extension, then we would get the half assed extension that Murray conceived
At this point, we should be giving credit where credit is due: Karen Stintz. Ford should not be taking any credit for this, with the exception of being a high school cheerleader for subways, subways, subways. Stintz was the one who lobbied for the line and the money and taxes to pay for it. If Ford was the one who crafted this subway extension, then we would get the half assed extension that Murray conceived
rbt
Senior Member
Yeah, Soberman discounted it entirely under the assumption Bombardier would charge $5M per Gen 1 car ($20M per train) or something ridiculous; but we could have ripped out the LIM system and tendered standard LRT with 3rd rail abilities that would fit the existing track.
Lengthen the stations by 50% and boost frequencies to 90 second and call it a day with 4 to 5 times existing capacity. Deployment would have been around 2011 too.
Oh well. Lets hope this sticks and we can move on to the important stuff.
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Tulse
Senior Member
Also, perhaps even more critically, Yonge-Bloor station has reached capacity, and there is really no way to expand it.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I think it's a great idea to build the subway.
It is essential that it be tunneled in the burbs because there are a lot of very nice Walmarts, fast food joints, and gas stations along the route and ruin that kind of urban bohemia would be a crime against humanity. I also think that the $2 billion spent for the extra one km of rapid transit is a far better use of funds than using that $2 billion to electrify the entire GO system in the City of Toronto, buy a fleet of DMUs and serve the entire city with affordable rapid transit. Although the increase in ridership and time will be near none existent the few extra passengers will help fill the trains and add more people to Yonge & Bloor which is currently woefully under capacity.
This SRT to subway conversion is by far the better choice and gets far more bang for the buck.
It is essential that it be tunneled in the burbs because there are a lot of very nice Walmarts, fast food joints, and gas stations along the route and ruin that kind of urban bohemia would be a crime against humanity. I also think that the $2 billion spent for the extra one km of rapid transit is a far better use of funds than using that $2 billion to electrify the entire GO system in the City of Toronto, buy a fleet of DMUs and serve the entire city with affordable rapid transit. Although the increase in ridership and time will be near none existent the few extra passengers will help fill the trains and add more people to Yonge & Bloor which is currently woefully under capacity.
This SRT to subway conversion is by far the better choice and gets far more bang for the buck.
Eug
Senior Member
I almost was thinking the same way as you, but then realized there was a much stronger chance this would have simply died without Ford's support. I suspect Flaherty came on board for a few reasons, not the least of which was to make Glen Murray look like an idiot, but also because Ford is his buddy.
Personally I think we should just force all the Wal-Marts to relocate downtown.
superman
Active Member
I think both sides need to recognize a win here for a transit tax. Since Scarborough got this subway, I think it would be much more easier now to pass a tax to build the DRL. In fact, now is probably the best time politically to pass a tax for the DRL and get everyone on board.
Eug
Senior Member
I'm not so sure. While many won't complain too much about a 1.6% increase, they would for a 5% increase.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Hopefully it helped get through peoples heads that transit actually costs money (Gasp!) and they will be more accepting of the Provincial plan.
Palma
Senior Member
I am just glad that the Scarborough subway will never get built. There will be a provinvial election, liberals will or should loose and Scarborough cancelled even though it will be long before it is ever started. The politicians that voted for scarborough over DRL should all loose their seats
Electrify
Senior Member
How much does a standard 4 car or equivalent length LRV go for? Articulated diesel buses go for about a million if I'm not mistaken, and at $700 million, half of the money budgeted for the line, we could buy 140 train sets. Let's say we buy 80 trains for $400 million, that leaves us with a good billion to extend the current SRT 6km right to Malvern Town Centre. At a very liberal $100 million per kilometer for the elevated line, that would leave us with $400 million to refurbish the current stations to make them more attractive and user friendly.
Of course, we probably would need far fewer than 80 trains to have a frequent and reliable service along the route.
EDIT: But I agree, we should move on to more important stuff.
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rbt
Senior Member
The LRVs we got for downtown, which are about double the capacity of the SRT cars and custom and tendered 3 to 4 years after the Soberman report, were $5M each.
Even custom LRVs for the exiting SRT alignment should have been quite a bit less per car. Assuming the same length of car due to the tunnel with standard non-articulated connections; perhaps $15M per 6-car train (capacity ~350 passengers comfortably; existing capacity is 220 passengers in 4-cars).
A one-way trip takes about 16 minutes; so 32 minutes round-trip. 90 second headways requires 21 trains + 4 spares (20% spare capacity is high). So about $375Million and a capacity around 14,000ppdph; today's capacity is about 5,000ppdph.
Hyundai Rotems like those on the Canada Line may have been cheaper than that.
Station modifications, transit yard, signalling system and other maintenance, is on top of that price. No extension was considered.
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BurlOak
Senior Member
Dan416
Senior Member
Because the Conservatives pitched in out of the goodness of their hearts. Right.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
If anything it has to do more with the Feds and Province both trying to secure Vaughan seats, and York region being one stubborn bastard repeatedly asking for the subway, something which our mayor is incapable of. (don't be an idiot, the funding for the Scarborough subway is entirely Stintz. Ford was too busy running away from reporters and the law to do it)