Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

Another useless plan being put forward. Also how much downtown relief line can you build with how much the city wants to raise from the tax hike.

I think a better compromise would be to built the SRT/ECLRT combined - that is the subway to STC and even Malvern. This would use up $330M to elevate the Eglinton Line through Scarborough, and $330M to extend the line from Sheppard to Malvern. No point having a temporary terminus less than 2km from the final terminus. This eats up the federal money. Also explore means to reduce the SRT closure (i.e. SkyTrain).

Then decide that Sheppard is too controversial (and Finch too). So these two lines get postponed until the effects of the Spadina-York extension and the SRT extension are visible. Announce that Articulated buses will run on these route to help ease congestion (this is happening anyways). Now you have $1.0B from Sheppard and $1.2B from Finch and whatever the tax hike is to use towards the DRL.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Completely agree with elevating, though I fear it will further delay the ECLRT with I don't want delayed any further. if they can find a way to open the underground portion of the ECLRT in 2020 but have the elevated portion open later I would be happy.

 

[Adjei]

Well the cost of Kennedy to STC via the hydro corridor was $1.4 Billion, fully funded by Metrolinx.

The plan proposed by Council to go from Kennedy to Sheppard via Sheppard needed $1.4 Billion from Metrolinx, a $660 Million from the feds and another ~$950 Million from Toronto.

Under this proposal, the ~$660 Million from the feds and ~$950 Million would be transferred to the DRL. Subtract the cost of extending the the SELRT so STC (let's say that costs $0.2 Billion) and that leaves a little more than $1.4 Billion for the DRL.

The DRL (Dundas West to Pape) is projected to cost $6.2 Billion. That means that this proposal will pay for about 23% of the cost of that line. Or, assuming that Metrolinx follows through on the $7 Billion they've committed to the Relief Line, this additional $1.4 Billion will be just enough to build the full DRL all the way from Dundas West, to King and up to Eglinton-Don Mills Station.

So it looks like we could build a huge chunk of the Relief Line with this money. This plan is certainly better than any of the other Scarborough Subway proposals. But it's politically dangerous.

I don't think you are understanding his plan. He proposes to go back to Murray's subway plan to Scarborough Town Centre but that plan has been shown by the TTC to cost closer to 1.8 billion instead of the 1.4 billion Murray stated. He also proposed taking the federal money and adding it the amount for Sheppard to build a subway. So let's say with the provincial money for sheppard and the federal money, you get close to around 2 billion. There is no way you can build a subway from Don Mills and Sheppard to Scarborough Town Centre for 2 billion dollars. You need over 3 billion dollars for that. Then he states we can use the money from the tax increase to start the DRL. How much subway can you build for 950 million dollars? Where is the rest of the money coming from? These useless plans are just here to further complicate this matter.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't think you are understanding his plan.

No I didn't:

Oh wow. I thought we were talking about extending the LRT. Looks like I misunderstood the article.

 

[BurlOak]

Completely agree with elevating, though I fear it will further delay the ECLRT with I don't want delayed any further. if they can find a way to open the underground portion of the ECLRT in 2020 but have the elevated portion open later I would be happy.

A few weeks back, I sent an e-mail to Metrolinx (the Crosstown):

• I made reference to newspaper articles from almost 3 years ago

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2010/12/20/elevated_transit_among_metrolinxs_alternatives.html
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/12/20/elevated-trains-metrolinx-offers-subway-alternative/​

• I then asked if they could share with me some of the details of the elevated LRT study and why it was not the recommended option.
• I also asked if SkyTrain technology was considered for a combined SRT/ECLRT to minimize the SRT shut-down, as was recommended in the 2006 TTC report.
• Finally, I reiterated all the benefits of the elevated plan.

The answer I got back was a link to an October 2010 TTC report on the SRT conversion and extension to Malvern.
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/scarborough_rapid_transit/

So, I asked about a Metrolinx study concerning Eglinton that was imminent for early 2011 and got a TTC report on the SRT from an earlier date (October 2010).

It seems to me that Metrolinx did not even consider the option of an elevated transit line. I guess I can just add it to the list of lies that Metrolinx has stated over the years (i.e. subway cannot go in SRT corridor, Ferrand Stop not physically possible due to grades, TBM lauch site cannot be on hillside West of the West Don).

And people wonder why the transit plans created by Metrolinx have no acceptance or credibility with the public or with politicians and are always being changed.

 

[Electrify]

Kelly might be on to something. His ideas about a Sheppard subway are worthless, but could they not use the province's alignment and money and $660 million from the feds to take the line up to Sheppard, with no extra money needed from the city?

 

[innsertnamehere]

IIRC the RT line with subway instead, according to Metrolinx, is $2.3 billion. (this is the one running to Centennial). Instead of $940 million raised, they would simply need. $200 million.

 

[Adjei]

IIRC the RT line with subway instead, according to Metrolinx, is $2.3 billion. (this is the one running to Centennial). Instead of $940 million raised, they would simply need. $200 million.

According to the report from the TTC and they said they worked with Metrolinx to prepare it, it would actually cost 2.9 billion to get Sheppard using the province's alignment. So let's say you take the 1.4 billion plus the fed's contribution you would still need close to close to 900 million from the city. Now I don't know if the province were to contribute the full 1.8 billion because they need to build a new Kennedy station for their alignment, then maybe the city will only need to contribute $500 million or so.

 

[EnviroTO]

Elevating is a non-stater in residential areas, political suicide. Through the Golden Mile they could probably do it but at the ends of the Golden Mile there are apartment buildings and the number of residents that would be motivated to act against the elevated transit option shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[gweed123]

Completely agree with elevating, though I fear it will further delay the ECLRT with I don't want delayed any further. if they can find a way to open the underground portion of the ECLRT in 2020 but have the elevated portion open later I would be happy.

That's what I would imagine would happen. The tunnelled section of the ECLRT and the current SLRT would open first, with the elevated connecting track opening a couple years later. Even without the connecting track, those two components would be valuable pieces of transit infrastructure on their own. But connected they would be crucial.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think the subway alignment matching the path of the SRT more closely is the better solution long term. If speed to Scarborough Centre was the only consideration then the new city plan would win. However, with the province's proposed alignment there is clearly greater long term development potential at proposed stations and along the route between stations if provisions (level grade) were made midway between stations. The whole area bounded by Birchmount, Ellesmere, Highland Creek, and 401 has significant development potential with good exposure to the freeway, existing development precedents, etc. When looking at the city proposal as compared to the province's proposal, I can't help but think the city must know that the Scarborough Centre development corridor is oriented east-west and wonder if the Sheppard subway isn't partly behind the alignment they have chosen. I still don't know how they will sell the adjustment from a station with direct access into Scarborough Town Centre with a subway station that is well onto the periphery of the mall requiring a walk equivalent to the walk from Nathan Phillips to Queen Station. Not that such a walk is long in the grand scheme of things but it is far less convenient than what exists now..

 

[Rainforest]

I think the subway alignment matching the path of the SRT more closely is the better solution long term. If speed to Scarborough Centre was the only consideration then the new city plan would win. However, with the province's proposed alignment there is clearly greater long term development potential at proposed stations and along the route between stations if provisions (level grade) were made midway between stations.

Can't the same be said about the McCowan route? A station on Eglinton west of Brimley becks to be added and the area around it has potential.

They can as well make provisions for future mid-block stations between Eglinton and Lawrence, Lawrence and Ellesmere, and even one at Milner (just north of 401).

The whole area bounded by Birchmount, Ellesmere, Highland Creek, and 401 has significant development potential with good exposure to the freeway, existing development precedents, etc.

That area will be quite difficult to serve by the subway. Murray's plan has a subway curve that starts south of Ellesmere and ends east of Midland, that would preclude any suitable station. Perhaps they can insert a 200-m long straight section in the middle of the curve and build a station there. But even then, the station will be close to Midland and quite a walk from Kennedy, let alone Birchmount.

When looking at the city proposal as compared to the province's proposal, I can't help but think the city must know that the Scarborough Centre development corridor is oriented east-west and wonder if the Sheppard subway isn't partly behind the alignment they have chosen. I still don't know how they will sell the adjustment from a station with direct access into Scarborough Town Centre with a subway station that is well onto the periphery of the mall requiring a walk equivalent to the walk from Nathan Phillips to Queen Station. Not that such a walk is long in the grand scheme of things but it is far less convenient than what exists now..

From the destinations and connectivity perspective, both possible subway alignments have their pros and cons. The SRT corridor alignment has a better location for STC station, direct service to Centennial Progress campus, and retains service to the existing Lawrence East cluster. The McCowan alignment directly serves the hospital, and has a better connection to Sheppard.

But the McCowan alignment is likely to win due to two technical advantages: it allows to retain the SRT service while the subway is being build, and the curves involved are smoother which means less wheels and tracks wear-off.

 

[doady]

Instead of extending the subway to SCC, what they should have done instead is convert the existing Bloor-Danforth line into LRT so that an LRT replacement of the Scarborough RT can utilize it. Think of all the other possible LRT lines that could feed into the subway like Don Mills, Jane, Morningside - it just makes sense.

 

[BurlOak]

Instead of extending the subway to SCC, what they should have done instead is convert the existing Bloor-Danforth line into LRT so that an LRT replacement of the Scarborough RT can utilize it. Think of all the other possible LRT lines that could feed into the subway like Don Mills, Jane, Morningside - it just makes sense.

They could also convert the Yonge line to LRT so that the extension north of Steeles could be built in the median - think of the money this would save instead of tunneling up to Richmond Hill.

PS. I am hoping that you were joking.

 

[BurlOak]

Elevating is a non-stater in residential areas, political suicide. Through the Golden Mile they could probably do it but at the ends of the Golden Mile there are apartment buildings and the number of residents that would be motivated to act against the elevated transit option shouldn't be underestimated.

Its not quite the same, but the West end of Egliton was changed to elevated near Keele - at a Community Centre. The SRT extension also has elevated portions near the backs of some residences. Again, these are not quite the same situations, but the complaints were not excessive. That is also why I propose to keep Ionview as an elevated station - if they have elevated transit on their street, at least they can have a station. Only Wynford and Ionview have resisdences that are actually somewhat close to Eglinton.

After thought: That is the strange thing about the EA process. 75% of the population of Toronto would be opposed to running the Eglinton LRT in the median from Brentcliffe to Don Mills. Maybe 50% would be opposed to median operation from Don Mills to Kennedy. However, both of these are being done. Then, a couple of dozen people complain about the loss of the Leslie Station or the Ferrand Stop and they get re-instated.