Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

No offense, but this argument has always seemed ridiculous to me. Why isn't the "forced transfer" from the Spadina Line to the Spadina LRT equally silly? What about all the "forced transfers" to buses at Kipling -- are they silly as well?

The transit mode should be determined by demand, and not just to avoid transfers.

I am sure people from Downsview, York U, and all of NW Toronto would complain about the forced transfer to get from the Eglinton to Vaughan LRT to the Eglinton to Union portion of the YUS line. Imagine if there was a forced transfer here. Maybe you can also imagine a forced transfer at Eglinton on the Yonge line. People from North York and Richmond Hill would have to transfer at Eglinton to the YUS line that only goes from Eglinton to Eglinton.

 

[syn]

Probably. But building transit based on potential redevelopment has always been a bad idea.

Exactly. Doesn't this proposal largely follow the current LRT path anyways?

 

[BurlOak]

If I understand the numbers correctly, the B-D subway to Sheppard/McCowan will cost $2.8B (which is $1B more than the LRT). The SELRT is $1.0B and the FWLRT is $1.2B. The total here is $5.0B

Now if Ford wanted to build the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to STC, that would cost $2.4B (according to the Chong report).
The current LRT plan would cost $1.8B, then add $300M to $400M to connect the SRT to the Eglinton line and elevated it from Don Mills to Kennedy. The total cost of these two "subways" would be $4.6B. They could even built the Malvern portion to its ulitmate terminus at Malvern Town Centre and still be less money than what is being proposed (2 LRT's and a short subway extension).

I am sure that if Ford did the math he would prefer to have 2 suways go to STC, rather than 1.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Just wait until the Eglinton and Sheppard LRTs open. The Eglinton LRT will show that an LRT with a tunnelled central section is just as efficient as a subway, and the Sheppard East LRT will show just how big of a PITA that transfer will be, and people will be screaming for some sort of solution to fix it.

And yet, no one is screaming about the awful transfer at Don Mills station. Way to much emphasis on trying to make a transfer-free network. THere is way too much obsession with eliminating transfers.

People will look at Eglinton and say "hey, that works, why don't we do the same thing on Sheppard?". I agree that now though it is politically unfeasible, but that's because of the sky-high level of rhetoric surrounding transit, and the lack of anything of similar operation existing in Toronto.

People will look at the completed SELRT and say 'hey, we actually complained about LRT? LRT is great!'

 

[syn]

If I understand the numbers correctly, the B-D subway to Sheppard/McCowan will cost $2.8B (which is $1B more than the LRT). The SELRT is $1.0B and the FWLRT is $1.2B. The total here is $5.0B

Now if Ford wanted to build the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to STC, that would cost $2.4B (according to the Chong report).
The current LRT plan would cost $1.8B, then add $300M to $400M to connect the SRT to the Eglinton line and elevated it from Don Mills to Kennedy. The total cost of these two "subways" would be $4.6B. They could even built the Malvern portion to its ulitmate terminus at Malvern Town Centre and still be less money than what is being proposed (2 LRT's and a short subway extension).

I am sure that if Ford did the math he would prefer to have 2 suways go to STC, rather than 1.

If I recall, the Chong report cost eventually rose to close to $4 billion.

 

[syn]

And yet, no one is screaming about the awful transfer at Don Mills station. Way to much emphasis on trying to make a transfer-free network. THere is way too much obsession with eliminating transfers.



People will look at the completed SELRT and say 'hey, we actually complained about LRT? LRT is great!'

It's not really about that, it's just become a symbol for the likes of Ford, proof that elitist downtown residents are depriving suburban residents of their right to get on a train and not have to transfer.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

People will look at the completed SELRT and say 'hey, we actually complained about LRT? LRT is great!'

People will look at the completed SELRT and say 'hey, we should have listened to Gweed and built a SEBRT instead. BRT is great!'

 

[ssiguy2]

Tell ya one thing, heads should roll if the city doesn't demand that the Sheppard subway have 2 station incorporated into it for a potential Sheppard subway ext or even underground LRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Exactly. Doesn't this proposal largely follow the current LRT path anyways?

It's 2 kilometers east. More or less the same.

 

[MisterF]

Then it's just another line. Relief indicates it should be relieving Yonge. It should have fewer stops.

I don't know where people get this idea that nobody will ride the DRL if it's not the fastest line in the city. Realistically, it could be the exact same speed as lines it's relieving and it would still be hugely popular (don't forget the hassle of tranfering at Bloor/Yonge). But that won't be the case - the DRL would have fewer stops and a faster ride than the Yonge/Bloor lines no matter how it's designed. The DRL can not only relieve Yonge/Bloor, but also the King streetcar and serve the downtown neighbourhoods it's going through anyway at the same time, adding countless potential riders in the process. To ignore the latter would be horrible planning.

If I'm correct this extension still serves less people than the LRT. If you're taking a bus, which many people will, you still have to transfer anyways.

Yes but in the suburbs the transfers should be at the biggest destinations (like STC) so the transfer point is where the most people are going anyway. With the current plan riders going from North York to Scarborough would have to transfer twice. One of those is unavoidable because of the subway, but the LRT could be designed to go directly to STC.

No offense, but this argument has always seemed ridiculous to me. Why isn't the "forced transfer" from the Spadina Line to the Spadina LRT equally silly? What about all the "forced transfers" to buses at Kipling -- are they silly as well?

The transit mode should be determined by demand, and not just to avoid transfers.

Those are transfering from one corridor to another. Hardly the same thing as what I'm talking about.

 

[kEiThZ]

While I can't stand Rob Ford, the forced transfer at Kennedy was always a bit silly so I'm glad to see the line extended to STC. Mind you, they're eliminating one needless transfer and creating another one at McCowan and Sheppard. The Sheppard LRT should go right to STC; linking NYCC to STC was the whole reason a mass transit line was proposed in that corridor in the first place.

Not enough people ride the Rocket service from Don Mills to SC. The context of the hated transfer just isn't there. The transfer at Kennedy on the other hand.....

Also, by taking the subway up to McCowan/Sheppard, a whole bunch of Malvern bus routes get shortened or redesigned and routes like McCowan North will also get relief.

All that said, once the SELRT gets built, I expect there will be lots of people complaining about the forced transfer at Don Mills in about 10 years. However, I also suspect that the debate will be much more diverse with more people supporting conversion to LRT as an option, rather than just arguing for an extension of the stubway.

 

[gweed123]

And yet, no one is screaming about the awful transfer at Don Mills station. Way to much emphasis on trying to make a transfer-free network. THere is way too much obsession with eliminating transfers.

No one except transit nerds are screaming about it because it hasn't been built yet. Give it a few years of operation, and that will change.

And no one is saying we should have a transfer-free network, it just bugs people when there is a linear transfer midway along a route. A transfer at a hub makes sense (Sheppard-Yonge, STC, etc), but transferring midway along a route (Kennedy, future Don Mills transfer) doesn't.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Even the densest stop spacing along king still provides for a faster ride. Donlands-Gerard-carlaw-river-parliament-Jarvis-king, compared to donlands-pape-Chester-broadview-castle frank-sherbourne-bloor Yonge-Wellesley-college-dundas-queen-king.

 

[kEiThZ]

Not politically feasible..

I disagree.

It is very politically sellable when combined with the right pitch. That would have to include elimination of the transfer at Don Mills, addition of an in-fill station at Willowdale and extension past Downsview.

 

[Electrify]

A couple of things:

1. Is this still going to be enough money? $600 million from the feds and $1.4 billion from the province puts us at $2 billion. Wasn't this line supposed to be $3 billion?

2. I wouldn't give Ford much credit for this. Stintz was the one who rejigged the plan and got council to agree to it. At best, Ford made it look politically appealing for Harper to invest in the city, but that's it.