Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Voltz]

I stand corrected. Looking at the map now, travel time from Morningside Heigths to Union could go down to 1:15 for me. That's from a realistic 1:45 today. It never works out to 1:30, doesn't matter what Google says.

What if that extra billion dollars was instead spent on extending the SRT to Finch and Neilson? Or on building the eastern half of the Midtown GO line, with all day service, to at least Malvern? Would you prefer either of those two far more worth while and rational transit projects instead of this partisan vote grabbing reelection exercise?

And what are the time savings on this subway compared to the planned LRT for you?

 

[BurlOak]

If I recall, the Chong report cost eventually rose to close to $4 billion.

Oops, I was wrong. The first hit on my Google search gave $2.7B for DM to STC.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/01/thumbs-up-for-sheppard-subway-extension-report

Making the revisions

If I understand the numbers correctly, the B-D subway to Sheppard/McCowan will cost $2.8B (which is $1B more than the LRT). The SELRT is $1.0B and the FWLRT is $1.2B. The total here is $5.0B

Now if Ford wanted to build the Sheppard Subway from Don Mills to STC, that would cost $2.7B (according to the Chong report).
The current LRT plan would cost $1.8B, then add $300M to $400M to connect the SRT to the Eglinton line and elevated it from Don Mills to Kennedy. The total cost of these two "subways" would be $4.9B.

I am sure that if Ford did the math he would prefer to have 2 suways go to STC, rather than 1.

I think the main point is that Ford is not being logical even for a Ford. He could satisfy both his election promises if he realized it.
The other thing to note is how others who know more about transit are deliberately NOT trying to save money or to find a better solution - since they do not want Ford to spend the savings on Sheppard.

 

[RPM]

What if that extra billion dollars was instead spent on extending the SRT to Finch and Neilson?

the cheap out to build the SRT in the first place is now coming back to haunt... to make the mistake again is absurd. it will only last another 30 years. For the cost of these 2 SRT's it's more than would have cost to originally make the SRT a subway to begin with that would still be good for another 75 years at least.

 

[Forgotten]

Agreed. I support a Bloor-Danforth subway extension plan over the Scarborough LRT plan so I do hope it happens. That said, a BRT along the SRT alignment and then stretching to Centennial College and finally to Sheppard.

But I do think if the Bloor-Danforth extension happens construction in a few years from now, the Relief Line HAS to begin construction around the same time. That's only fair, though, if Ford gets to remain mayor for the next council term, we all know he'll want to scrap any plans for the Relief Line for a Sheppard Subway extension instead.

BRT needs more space than LRT so no.

nice feather in Ford's cap...

have to give him credit when it's due... damn the naysayers

You mean Stintz. If she runs next year you can bet that backstabber will be using this against Rob Ford.

Now how long until Scarberians complain about the terrible transfer at the centre of the universe (Scarborough Town Centre) or the nonsensical transfer at Sheppard and start calling for subway branches to Steeles, to Malvern and to Scarborough GO? You could even interline it with the Yonge line somehow and everyone can have a one seat ride to Downsview.

 

[Adjei]

Seems the alignment is still not decided:

http://www.citynews.ca/2013/09/23/murray-on-fed-funding-for-scarborough-subway/

 

[W. K. Lis]

The TTC board will see on Wednesday the Scarborough Subway Options, see this link, that recommends the following:

RECOMMENDATION

It is recommended that the Board:

1. Support the Scarborough subway alignment along the McCowan corridor, through Scarborough City Centre and north to Sheppard Avenue East (indicated in Figure 2), previously approved by City Council at the meeting of July 17, 2013;

2. Forward this report to the City Manager for inclusion in the City Manager's report to City Council at the October 8, 2013 meeting; and

3. Forward this report to Metrolinx, Provincial Minister of Transportation and Federal Minister of Infrastructure, Communities and Intergovernmental Affairs.


FUNDING

In 2009 the Province announced funding of $1.8 billion for the cost of the design and construction for the conversion of the Scarborough RT to LRT and extension to Sheppard Avenue. The Master Agreement between the City, TTC and Metrolinx confirms Metrolinx’s responsibility for project delivery.

The Province has publically committed $1.48 of the $1.8 billion to funding the Bloor-Danforth subway extension, less the sunk costs associated with the Scarborough LRT, design and project management (currently estimated at $85 million) and any costs associated with the re-negotiation of the Bombardier LRV contract.

Neither the Provincial (RT corridor alignment) nor TTC (McCowan corridor alignment) subway option to Sheppard Avenue estimated at $2.9 billion and $2.5 billion ($2010) respectively, are achievable within the current Provincial funding envelope. Even when the options are truncated at Scarborough City Centre both Provincial and TTC options estimated at $1.7 - $1.9 billion and $1.9 billion ($2010) respectively require additional funding.

Additional funding from the Federal Government, Province or the City will be required to proceed with any of the subway options. The City has requested funding commitment from the Federal Government and anticipates a response before the end of September.

 

[smallspy]

the cheap out to build the SRT in the first place is now coming back to haunt... to make the mistake again is absurd. it will only last another 30 years. For the cost of these 2 SRT's it's more than would have cost to originally make the SRT a subway to begin with that would still be good for another 75 years at least.

What is absurd is your point of view, which not only is very much mistaken but unfortunately shared by a lot of people.

What makes you think that a subway will last 75 years? Vehicles are designed to last 30, signal systems 40 to 50. Power systems are in the same region. Rails get replaced every 20 to 30 depending on use. The only thing that can last 75 years is the structure, and even that's no promise - those tunnels north of Eglinton aren't anywhere close to 50, nevermind 75.

The SRT was the right idea, built in the wrong way. It may have ended up being more expensive than a subway was, but the idea was that you can get a light, fast and inexpensive (to build and run) transit system for far less than a subway. And that idea still reigns true today - a subway is never going to be necessary to handle the crowds north-east of Kennedy Station in any of our lifetimes, or those of our children.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[datamouse]

It's funny how the TTC report does say the SRT alignment is technically feasible after all the talk about how it wouldn't be.

 

[Voltz]

the cheap out to build the SRT in the first place is now coming back to haunt... to make the mistake again is absurd. it will only last another 30 years. For the cost of these 2 SRT's it's more than would have cost to originally make the SRT a subway to begin with that would still be good for another 75 years at least.

No, political interference in transit is coming back to haunt us, and it is happening again. If it was built as a light rail line originally there would be no problems with capacity or acquiring compatible replacement vehicles necessitating replacement of the line, and it likely would have been extended a long time ago.

They were not cheap with building the SRT, political interference caused a large escalation in costs

 

[syn]

Ummm. Most people arriving at STC have always had to transfer. And most using the LRT would still have had to transfer. Taking the subway up to Sheppard/McCowan will shorten a ton of bus rides though and get rid of the hated Kennedy transfer.

Today, it would take me about 1:45 from my place in Malvern to Union with 3 transfers. That will go to 1:30 with two transfers with this plan. That's both a boost on convenience and travel time.

Is the boost over what an LRT would've provided worth the extra $1 billion or so they'll have to invest? I'm thinking no. This is an extension that makes absolutely no sense from a fiscal perspective, especially when there are much more pressing transit needs.

An LRT would be a great solution for Scarborough at a very effective price.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the McCowan corridor is used for the Bloor-Danforth eastern extension, what is to happen with the current Scarborough RT right-of-way?

Great location for a bicycle and e-bike path! Keep the bridges and underpasses. Though I think getting bikes down from the elevated portions maybe a problem. Going down would be fast, going up will be a problem.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

If the McCowan corridor is used for the Bloor-Danforth eastern extension, what is to happen with the current Scarborough RT right-of-way?

Great location for a bicycle and e-bike path! Keep the bridges and underpasses. Though I think getting bikes down from the elevated portions maybe a problem. Going down would be fast, going up will be a problem.

Or maybe use the ROW to add a second set of track for all day GO service?

 

[Hipster Duck]

If the McCowan corridor is used for the Bloor-Danforth eastern extension, what is to happen with the current Scarborough RT right-of-way?

Great location for a bicycle and e-bike path! Keep the bridges and underpasses. Though I think getting bikes down from the elevated portions maybe a problem. Going down would be fast, going up will be a problem.

I don't know. I like bike paths, and all, but converting a fully-functioning heavy rail rapid transit line into a bike corridor reminds me of:

 

[MisterF]

How is transferring from the Spadina Line to the Spadina LRT moving from one "corridor" to another?

The corridor is the subway line, not the street. One line stops in a nondescript location and changes technology 5 km before the logical end point. The other connects downtown to the outer reaches of the city and happens to use Spadina for part of its length. If the Spadina subway stopped at Bloor and then continued as a streetcar you'd have a point.

 

[kEiThZ]

How is transferring from the Spadina Line to the Spadina LRT moving from one "corridor" to another?

The Spadina line isn't staying on Spadina. The two Spadinas are certainly not the same corridor. That confusion is a result of naming the subway line Spadina in the first place (after the defunct Spadina Expressway).

On Sheppard, however, it's a linear transfer. You are staying on the very same avenue and transferring. People tend to find that to be annoying.