Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

The city could pay for the LRT without financing from the province. If they needed to fund the project themselves they could and would be forced to find a more pragmatic approach to building transit in Scarborough, either an elevated Line 2 extension or LRT. It's easy to spend 5 billion of someone else's $, hence why we are now here with this ridiculous plan to extend Line 2 underground.

That's not someone else's $ though. This city is the major contributor to the province's budget, it just can't direct the funds. The province has partial sovereignty, the city has nothing but the powers given by the province.

Any major project can be described as someone else's if the observer doesn't like the project, but that's not how the public finances work. The government collects the taxes and decides how to use them.

 

[Rainforest]

You can go on these long rants as much as you want, it does not make what you keep saying true. Scarborough was lied to by the subway fanatics, and most people didn't know what LRT is. If it was built, no one would be saying we should have instead built three subway stops 15 years later.

LRT fanatics are no less tunnel-visioned than subway fanatics.

I agree that if LRT was built as SRT replacement, then the residents would get used to it within a few years, and few if any would complain that the subway should have been built instead.

However, same will happen if/when the subway is built. The residents will get used to this new transit network configuration, and few if any will complain that LRT should have been built instead.

 

[Voltz]

LRT fanatics are no less tunnel-visioned than subway fanatics.

I agree that if LRT was built as SRT replacement, then the residents would get used to it within a few years, and few if any would complain that the subway should have been built instead.

However, same will happen if/when the subway is built. The residents will get used to this new transit network configuration, and few if any will complain that LRT should have been built instead.

No less tunnel-visioned? Really? The people cancelling funded transit lines to instead have transit built, if not only just planned, in tunnels where there are corridors on the surface to built it for much less instead, or where the ridership does not justify the expense of tunnels are no less tunnel-visioned? The people responsible for setting transit back by another generation are no less tunnel-visioned? The people who only care about the few trips to Scarborough Center rather than the many more who continue their trips on slow and crowded buses and would have been better off with LRT are no less tunnel visioned?

That is just ridiculous.

 

[Rainforest]

No less tunnel-visioned? Really?

Really.

The people cancelling funded transit lines to instead have transit built, if not only just planned, in tunnels where there are corridors on the surface to built it for much less instead, or where the ridership does not justify the expense of tunnels are no less tunnel-visioned? The people responsible for setting transit back by another generation are no less tunnel-visioned? The people who only care about the few trips to Scarborough Center rather than the many more who continue their trips on slow and crowded buses and would have been better off with LRT are no less tunnel visioned?

People who cannot grasp the concept of a trunk line, and keep claiming that trips to Scarborough Center are "few", are certainly tunnel-visioned.

The subway option has at least as many benefits as the comparable in cost LRT network.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

LRT fanatics are no less tunnel-visioned than subway fanatics.

I agree that if LRT was built as SRT replacement, then the residents would get used to it within a few years, and few if any would complain that the subway should have been built instead.

However, same will happen if/when the subway is built. The residents will get used to this new transit network configuration, and few if any will complain that LRT should have been built instead.

Yeah instead they’ll be complaining that their commutes in 2030 will be demonstrably worse than in 2020, with 90% of them will be stuck in mixed-traffic busses with ever growing congestion. A $5 Billion investment that results in nothing better than the status quo (in terms of overall commute times in Scarborough).

Scarborough desperately needs a more robust bus network, but politicians can’t help but dangle expensive toys in front of voters.

So happy I’m not in Highland Creek anymore. That 198 Rocket was already unbearable in rush hour 5 years ago, and it’s gonna be so much worse in another decade. We had $5 Billion to make a substantial improvement to transit in Scarborough, and decided to pour it all into this one stupid subway extension which only a tiny fraction of Scarborough residents will ever use on a regular basis.

That same money could’ve been used to implement massive improvements to the bus network across Scarborough that would’ve been felt by a huge chunk of commuters, but voters want shiny toys.

 

[pman]

Really.



People who cannot grasp the concept of a trunk line, and keep claiming that trips to Scarborough Center are "few", are certainly tunnel-visioned.

The subway option has at least as many benefits as the comparable in cost LRT network.

ML has determined that the benefit to cost ratio of SSE is in the 30’s. OK there are a lot of assumptions that go into the calculation, but this is so far from 100 that the only conclusion is that the project is a large value destroyer. There are a some non-economic arguments for SSE, revolving around equity for folks and the inconvenience of the Warden transfer. And I get that more than a few people will travel to Scarborough Centre. But not nearly enough to justify the enormous cost we’re all going to be required to pay. Net-net, we almost always allocate our limited transit infrastructure resources to projects with little benefit relative to cost, so perhaps the best argument for SSE is that rational economics simply never applies to Toronto transit decisions. The Eglinton LRT, and the proposed Eglinton West extension come to mind. However, we shouldn’t then be surprised if mobility continues to get even worse as our population grows.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'd have nothing wrong with this subway extension, if other transit improvements in Scarborough were genuinely on the table. The Eglinton East LRT should've been built before the subway. We should've seen BRT on Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard and Finch, before this subway. We should've built the Relief Line North and RER (with regional fare integration), before the subway. Each of those projects, individually, would've been of far more utility to Scarborough residents than this subway extension. And given a ~$6 Billion capital budget, we could've implemented a substantial portion of those projects (I'd wager at least the EELRT and the BRT projects, with some extra funds to contribute to DRL North and RER), which would've delivered Scarborough a transit network that would've been the envy of the GTA suburbs.

And you know what, had all those projects been implemented, I bet most of the impetus to build this subway extension in the first place would've evaporated, as BRT, LRT, DRL and RER, working together to form a network, would almost always offer faster travel times, both within Scarborough and to destinations across the city, than the what the Line 2 subway extension would offer.

I'll never not be upset at Scarborough politicians for aggressively pushing this one vanity project, over figuring out how to most efficiently build a network in Scarborough to serve the most people possible. This was a once in a generation opportunity, and they blew it. People won't recognize it now, but they will years from now, as Scarborough's ever more congested streets make getting around by bus more challenging

 

[Rainforest]

ML has determined that the benefit to cost ratio of SSE is in the 30’s. OK there are a lot of assumptions that go into the calculation, but this is so far from 100 that the only conclusion is that the project is a large value destroyer. There are a some non-economic arguments for SSE, revolving around equity for folks and the inconvenience of the Warden transfer. And I get that more than a few people will travel to Scarborough Centre. But not nearly enough to justify the enormous cost we’re all going to be required to pay. Net-net, we almost always allocate our limited transit infrastructure resources to projects with little benefit relative to cost, so perhaps the best argument for SSE is that rational economics simply never applies to Toronto transit decisions. The Eglinton LRT, and the proposed Eglinton West extension come to mind. However, we shouldn’t then be surprised if mobility continues to get even worse as our population grows.

Does any of LRT projects proposed in Scarborough have a benefit to cost ratio significantly better than in the 30’s ?

 

[Rainforest]

I'd have nothing wrong with this subway extension, if other transit improvements in Scarborough were genuinely on the table. The Eglinton East LRT should've been built before the subway. We should've seen BRT on Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard and Finch, before this subway. We should've built the Relief Line North and RER (with regional fare integration), before the subway. Each of those projects, individually, would've been of far more utility to Scarborough residents than this subway extension. And given a ~$6 Billion capital budget, we could've implemented a substantial portion of those projects (I'd wager at least the EELRT and the BRT projects, with some extra funds to contribute to DRL North and RER), which would've delivered Scarborough a transit network that would've been the envy of the GTA suburbs.

And you know what, had all those projects been implemented, I bet most of the impetus to build this subway extension in the first place would've evaporated, as BRT, LRT, DRL and RER, working together to form a network, would almost always offer faster travel times, both within Scarborough and to destinations across the city, than the what the Line 2 subway extension would offer.

I'll never not be upset at Scarborough politicians for aggressively pushing this one vanity project, over figuring out how to most efficiently build a network in Scarborough to serve the most people possible. This was a once in a generation opportunity, and they blew it. People won't recognize it now, but they will years from now, as Scarborough's ever more congested streets make getting around by bus more challenging

I agree that Eglinton East LRT should have been built before the subway; that's a missed opportunity. Amongst other benefits, it would soften the hit if SRT has to close several years before the subway opens. Eglinton East would not need buses at all, and Markham Rd / Morningside / Meadowvale buses could run to the closest EELRT stop (at least temporarily), reducing the total number of bustitutes needed.

All other of your proposed projects are reasonable, but never were seriously championed by anyone. BRT on Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard and Finch never was promoted by, say, Miller when he was in the office, or Chow when she ran for the office. Relief Line North can't happen until we sort out Relief Line South. RER with regional fare integration is something we are going around in circles for ages, with very little progress so far. I don't think it is reasonable to lay all blame for the omission of those projects on the Scarborough pro-subway politicians.

 

[Rainforest]

Yeah instead they’ll be complaining that their commutes in 2030 will be demonstrably worse than in 2020, with 90% of them will be stuck in mixed-traffic busses with ever growing congestion. A $5 Billion investment that results in nothing better than the status quo (in terms of overall commute times in Scarborough).

They wont' be stuck so badly. The subway terminus at Sheppard should remove one of the major bottlenecks: crossing over / under the 401for buses that serve areas north of 401.

The population of Scarborough will only see a modest growth overall. A few hot spots like STC will be linked to grade-separated transit, and those new residents will not contribute to the car congestion. The per-person car ownership is not growing, and might decline somewhat. Thus, if most of the local roads are not very congested today, then they won't be in 2030, either.

If some sections do become an challenge for the buses, then adding a pair of bus-only lanes in those sections only should be doable, and can be done fairly quickly.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Does any of LRT projects proposed in Scarborough have a benefit to cost ratio significantly better than in the 30’s ?

City is responsible for any future LRT in Scarborough. And at this point, they serve different markets.

I agree that Eglinton East LRT should have been built before the subway; that's a missed opportunity. Amongst other benefits, it would soften the hit if SRT has to close several years before the subway opens. Eglinton East would not need buses at all, and Markham Rd / Morningside / Meadowvale buses could run to the closest EELRT stop (at least temporarily), reducing the total number of bustitutes needed.

All other of your proposed projects are reasonable, but never were seriously championed by anyone. BRT on Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard and Finch never was promoted by, say, Miller when he was in the office, or Chow when she ran for the office. Relief Line North can't happen until we sort out Relief Line South. RER with regional fare integration is something we are going around in circles for ages, with very little progress so far. I don't think it is reasonable to lay all blame for the omission of those projects on the Scarborough pro-subway politicians.

Some of these were part of MoveOntario2020

They wont' be stuck so badly. The subway terminus at Sheppard should remove one of the major bottlenecks: crossing over / under the 401for buses that serve areas north of 401.

The population of Scarborough will only see a modest growth overall. A few hot spots like STC will be linked to grade-separated transit, and those new residents will not contribute to the car congestion. The per-person car ownership is not growing, and might decline somewhat. Thus, if most of the local roads are not very congested today, then they won't be in 2030, either.

If some sections do become an challenge for the buses, then adding a pair of bus-only lanes in those sections only should be doable, and can be done fairly quickly.

Remember, were starting from scratch. There's a chance this could be cut down to STC to save time and money.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't think it is reasonable to lay all blame for the omission of those projects on the Scarborough pro-subway politicians.

Yeah, fair enough. There's plenty of blame to go around, and it really just comes down to the heavily politicized nature of transit building. Voters had their say, and they quite clearly prefer the subway extension, even though it is demonstrably one of the least efficient means of spending the limited funding. I'm not going to berate voters for that; that's the solution they know has worked elsewhere, even though it'll be tremendously inefficient in this case. It just sucks know that, in an alternate universe where engineers and planners could've designed a system absent of political considerations, there's not a snowballs chance in hell that "spend $6 Billion on three subway stations" would've been their solution to Scarborough's transit challenges.

They wont' be stuck so badly. The subway terminus at Sheppard should remove one of the major bottlenecks: crossing over / under the 401for buses that serve areas north of 401.

The population of Scarborough will only see a modest growth overall. A few hot spots like STC will be linked to grade-separated transit, and those new residents will not contribute to the car congestion. The per-person car ownership is not growing, and might decline somewhat. Thus, if most of the local roads are not very congested today, then they won't be in 2030, either.

Toronto will be adding another million people within the next 20 years. For every three of us on the roads today, they'll be another one added by 2040. Nevermind the growth of the 905 as well, directing even more people onto Toronto roads. It's hard not to imagine congestion on Scarborough streets not getting substantially worse under those conditions. Much of the road network is already gridlocked today

Also we really oughta discuss how the TTC's bus fleet is substantially underfunded to handle passenger growth into the next decade. These subway network improvements won't matter if we don't have the buses to get people into the stations in the first place. This is a lot more involved than going to your local bus dealership and buying a few extra buses. We'll need a lot more garage space, which will take substantial time to fund and plan. Had we gone about this intelligently, all of this would've been rolled into the plans for a Scarborough BRT network.

 

[BurlOak]

I suspect the average Scarborough citizen does not know anything about LRT or subway or technology or terminology.

They did not like; 1) the SRT to B-D transfer, and 2) the 3 year SRT shutdown.

They were open to any solution that solved those problems. Along came the Ford-McGuinty compromise - which solved only the first one - but was widely accepted. The public didn't care it was LRT. They didn't know what grade-separated was - but liked the fact that transit doesn't interfere with cars (and vice versa).
The City decided to go back to the same transfer SRT proposal that was the source of all that animosity.
It was when Karen Stintz suggested One City, with a B-D being extended to STC (actually to Sheppard), that the public found a project to support.
Each time a planned project was killed, they always reverted to the same rejected transfer SRT plan.
The public was open to any option that could solve their 2 main demands, yet the City continued to revert back to a failed plan.
When the B-D extension came back again, it just had too much momentum.
We had multiple opportunities to find a better plan, and each and every time we failed.
Now we are stuck with this.
My only hope was that somehow they could use cut-and-cover to reduce costs.
I'm not sure, but I suspect fear of the city suggestion transfer LRT again meant the Province would not entertain any real change to the planned plan (that had Mayor, Premier and previous Premier approval).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Keep in mind that QP is still awaiting over $11 Billion in federal funding. Whether or not that money materializes will impact what, if anything, actually gets built. QP has been asking for these funds for over a year though; the fact that Ford is still publicly pleading for funds is not an encouraging sign

Province to ask federal government to help fund $28.5B transit plan

The provincial government has announced that it will be asking Ottawa to help fund its ambitious $28.5-billion transit plan. At a press conference in Scarborough Tuesday morning, Premier Doug Ford said he’s asking the federal government to step up with 40 per cent of the funding. “What’s good...

toronto.citynews.ca

Wasn't that due to the fact the Province didn't submit an actual plan to the feds but essentially just asked for the money without anything to show for it. I think what the feds are looking for is something tangible, not just lines on a map.

Double checked, and yea, you're right, QP didn't submit the paperwork to receiving federal funds for their transit plan.

I understand them not submitting the paperwork for the SSE and the EWLRT (as the BCA was not yet completed), but the fact that the OL paperwork hasn't yet been submitted is curious. I was under the impression that they were planning to do that almost a year ago, immediately following the release of the OL BCA. Perhaps they're waiting for the private sector to come back with price estimates, but I really don't trust QP's intentions with any of these projects. Especially not with them beating the drums about the feds not providing OL funding, while also never formally asking for funding. That's... sketchy.

In any case, they're "asking" the feds to cover 40 percent of the cost of these projects, which is substantially larger than the traditional 33 percent split. If the feds don't agree, I suppose some of these projects will be truncated or scrapped. Most probably the EWLRT or the western segment of the OL. I think the SSE is pretty safe for funding.

 

[Rainforest]

In any case, they're "asking" the feds to cover 40 percent of the cost of these projects, which is substantially larger than the traditional 33 percent split. If the feds don't agree, I suppose some of these projects will be truncated or scrapped. Most probably the EWLRT or the western segment of the OL. I think the SSE is pretty safe for funding.

I think 40% is the new Federal infrastructure fund offer; asking for 40% instead of 33% is reasonable.

Whether they get the Feds on-board at all is a separate question. I strongly suspect that the Feds will stay away from any political debates, and will fund all provincial requests as long as they a) conform to all formal rules, and b) the total is within that province's share.

If the OL proposal cannot conform to the rules .. that would certainly be a problem, and can kill the project or delay till the government changes.