Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

I wouldn't be surprised if Metrolinx is depending on bids tendered to reduce costs and propose efficiencies rather than finding them themselves (sections cut and covered or elevated).

I always wondered whether Vancouver deliberately wrote their tender documents to allow cut-and-cover. They knew they couldn't get political or public approval to do it, but knew it was the right thing to do in order to get the most cost effective solution.
The short 40m stations were likely a mistake though.

 

[Rainforest]

It does nothing to help move people around the city.

Doesn't help?

From the Lawrence East bus to Line 2 subway: about 10 min saving each way. A 5 min shorter bus ride, to McCowan instead of Kennedy, plus another 5 min due to the elimination of SRT-to-subway transfer.

From STC to Line 2: about 5 min saving, due to the elimination of transfer.

From the buses that serve points north of 401, re-routed to the Sheppard terminus: at least 10 min, and possibly 15 min saving each way, because those buses frequently get stuck in traffic crossing the 401 (plus the transfer elimination).

Even for Eglinton West: the projected ridership is small, and does not really warrant the expensive tunnel, but for those riders, the trips will definitely be faster. Not same as "doesn't help at all".

 

[Rainforest]

They are rushing ECLRT West tunnelling before the next provincial election.

AoD

Is that a change in direction? Just a couple of weeks ago, it looked like they want to expedite the OL, and postpone any real spending on the other 3 projects until after the 2022 elections.

Instead, they are pushing ahead with SSE and Eglinton West. If the SSE tunneling starts before any OL construction, then it is hard to see how SSE can finish 3 years later than OL. OL/RL in any form will include a substantial amount of tunneling in downtown, and that can't be done very quickly.

 

[BurlOak]

Is that a change in direction? Just a couple of weeks ago, it looked like they want to expedite the OL, and postpone any real spending on the other 3 projects until after the 2022 elections.

Instead, they are pushing ahead with SSE and Eglinton West. If the SSE tunneling starts before any OL construction, then it is hard to see how SSE can finish 3 years later than OL. OL/RL in any form will include a substantial amount of tunneling in downtown, and that can't be done very quickly.

It makes sense to prioritize Eglinton West.
There is no debate about the route to take, or the fact that it must be fully grade-separated.
The only thing left if to find means of reducing construction costs.

Scarborough Subway and Ontario Line - there can still be some route optimization, so it makes to wait longer with these.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It makes sense to prioritize Eglinton West.
There is no debate about the route to take, or the fact that it must be fully grade-separated.
The only thing left if to find means of reducing construction costs.

Because rushing to complete a tunnel is the means of reducing construction cost (considering elevating as an alternative that will be eliminated by such a move). Also, since when does it make sense to determine priority by alignment and not urgency of need?

AoD

 

[44 North]

It makes sense to prioritize Eglinton West.
There is no debate about the route to take, or the fact that it must be fully grade-separated.
The only thing left if to find means of reducing construction costs.

Scarborough Subway and Ontario Line - there can still be some route optimization, so it makes to wait longer with these.

I think there should be debate about it being fully grade-separated, and don't consider it a fact that it must be. The time for considering that was many years ago, and it could've made sense to. A medium capacity subway across the centre of the city, lightweight, 3rd rail/no pantos, over 20k pphpd capacity, would've been smart. But right now the eastern portion isn't fully grade-separated, its far eastern planned portion won't be fully grade-separated, and the line will use hefty low-floor urban tram vehicles specifically chosen for roadway operation. A few grade-separations in Etobicoke, sure. But not the whole western portion.

Want to reduce costs? Put it in the roadway like it was planned to be and like the eastern half is. Why try to simulate a subway when it's not one and wasn't planned to be.

 

[Rainforest]

It makes sense to prioritize Eglinton West.
There is no debate about the route to take, or the fact that it must be fully grade-separated.
The only thing left if to find means of reducing construction costs.

Even if they are determined to fully grade-separate Eglinton West, at least they could consider elevated instead of tunneled. That section of Eglinton is very wide, the distance between the guideway and the houses would be sufficient ..

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Doesn't help?

From the Lawrence East bus to Line 2 subway: about 10 min saving each way. A 5 min shorter bus ride, to McCowan instead of Kennedy, plus another 5 min due to the elimination of SRT-to-subway transfer.

From STC to Line 2: about 5 min saving, due to the elimination of transfer.

From the buses that serve points north of 401, re-routed to the Sheppard terminus: at least 10 min, and possibly 15 min saving each way, because those buses frequently get stuck in traffic crossing the 401 (plus the transfer elimination).

Even for Eglinton West: the projected ridership is small, and does not really warrant the expensive tunnel, but for those riders, the trips will definitely be faster. Not same as "doesn't help at all".

10 minutes is not that big and they still have to complete the loop. This subway begets the other subway.

It makes sense to prioritize Eglinton West.
There is no debate about the route to take, or the fact that it must be fully grade-separated.
The only thing left if to find means of reducing construction costs.

Scarborough Subway and Ontario Line - there can still be some route optimization, so it makes to wait longer with these.

Eglinton West is in many ways worse the Danforth Extension. At least that will come close the subway's regular numbers.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm not talking about relevancy based on where I live. The actual data doesn't justify a subway in Scarborough, and certainly not one that's entirely buried.

The Ontario Line/Relief line is foundational infrastructure. We can't get it wrong. Cheaping out on it and limiting capacity is incredibly foolish. This isn't based on feelings, it's based on where ridership levels are currently at and where they're going to be when the line opens.

There used to be a time when facts were a much larger component of the discussion than people's subjective wants.

When did Miller promise the Eglinton LRT would be converted to a subway line? Is this yet another fabricated talking point?


Based on growth projections that were wrong.

Interestingly, ever iteration of the Relief/Ontario Line dating back to the mid-20th century called for it to be a high capacity, underground line.

I believe the province did. And frankly, it should have been from day one.

 

[Rainforest]

10 minutes is not that big and they still have to complete the loop.

For an occasional trip, 10 min isn't much of a saving. But if you are traveling two times every weekday, then saving 10 min on each trip helps quite a bit.

Otherwise, why are we even talking about any LRT or BRT in the city? Hardly any of the proposed surface lines (except ECLRT with its long tunnel section) will deliver a saving of more than 10 min one way.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

For an occasional trip, 10 min isn't much of a saving. But if you are traveling two times every weekday, then saving 10 min on each trip helps quite a bit.

Otherwise, why are we even talking about any LRT or BRT in the city? Hardly any of the proposed surface lines (except ECLRT with its long tunnel section) will deliver a saving of more than 10 min one way.

But the problem is north of the 401. You still have to build Sheppard east. The 39 Finch East will not go there, that's one of the busiest routes, you have compete with that. They will want to close the loop at some point.

 

[syn]

I believe the province did. And frankly, it should have been from day one.

I'd love to see a source for this, as I don't recall a single 'promise' that the Eglinton LRT was going to be put entirely underground.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'd love to see a source for this, as I don't recall a single 'promise' that the Eglinton LRT was going to be put entirely underground.

No, the promise was that the Eglinton LRT could be converted to full subway at some point. No proof was ever shown.

 

[syn]

No, the promise was that the Eglinton LRT could be converted to full subway at some point. No proof was ever shown.

Again, I'd love to see a source for this. I don't recall this promise ever being made.

Even if it was, I'd question if this was the point they were referring to.

 

[Aplus23]

No it does not achieve the same goal and is equally as bad of a plan, just cheaper. Neither plan achieves what it should. This is why someone like Josh Matlow is just as incompetent as Ford albeit with much less power.

If I were QP I'd pull all funding for SSE/LRT and reallocate all transit funds to either enhancing and maximizing capacity on all GO corridors. If Toronto wants to spend 5 billion on expanding Line 2 then Toronto should figure out how to pay for it. Spoiler alert - they couldn't afford it and would be forced to build something more pragmatic.

Do you live in Scarborough?? People do have to get from Kennedy Station to STC and beyond. The SRT does have a high ridership so the infrastructure is needed. It just shouldn't be tunnelled when we have perfectly good infrastructure already in place