Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Hopkins123]

What people don't like is blowing billions of dollars on taxpayer dollars for projects to benefit his political fortunes, while cheaping out on the ones that actually need full capacity. No reason the entire SSE has to be underground, and there's really no sensible justification for the Eglinton West extension to be underground either.

This is all subjective bloviation. To someone living in Bendale, the subway through there is more relevant to them than whether someone in Corktown has a stop at their doorstep or not. Heck SSE's more relevant to commuters living in Cedarbrae, Woburn, West Hill and Port Union too - all downstream along Lawrence East. There's nothing about the Ontario Line proposal that cannot be ironed out in time. You're the ones wanting it rushed through. It seems only the Crosstown gets stuck as is in perpetuity when Miller, McGuinty, et. al. promised Torontonians that it could one day be converted into a full-fledged subway line. What happened to those talking points?

Tell me how an elevated guideway is going to go up Danforth-McCowan Rds, btw. It can only be tunneled. If you wanted surface subway in the SRT corridor, you shouldn't have turned against your own "subway champions" (Hunter, Murray, DeBearemaker, Stintz) in the overt attempt to stick it to the Fords. You only stuck it to East End residents for another generation.

And every iteration of Eglinton West except Transit City called for a tunneled or elevated Eglinton West Line through Richview. From Bill Davis to Bob Rae to Smitherman to John Tory.

 

[Steve X]

It's just so unbelievably mismanged. I'll give props to them for advancing them but that's only to get them started before the next election and to please Ford without thought.

He still has done more in the first couple years if his term than most premiers. Is he doing it right? Most people in the city would say yes, only the minority (here at UT and some transit experts) says no. In the democracy world, he gets a pass (for now).

 

[Hopkins123]

Meh until construction is well underway they haven't done anything in my opinion. That goes for all governments and political parties, I don't support any specific party, they've all proven to be completely incompetent in building transit at all levels on a consistent basis.

Talk is cheap and until they create a consistent source of funding for transit projects it's all talk. The first sentence is asking for the FED's to fund 40%. Watch what happens it's so predictable. More EA's, more community consultations, same results due to lack of consistent funding and vision. The pitch from Ford was transit expansion built pragmatically and this is the opposite of that.

This is like saying the Montreal Blue Line Metro isn't going to get extended even though planning is well in the works and expropriations have begun. Just because shovels aren't in the ground as of yet, doesn't mean that SSE's not happening. If anything this makes or breaks the case for Ford More Years!

 

[syn]

He still has done more in the first couple years if his term than most premiers. Is he doing it right? Most people in the city would say yes, only the minority (here at UT and some transit experts) says no. In the democracy world, he gets a pass (for now).

Has he though? These plans have been percolating for years.

 

[blacksquirrels]

This is like saying the Montreal Blue Line Metro isn't going to get extended even though planning is well in the works and expropriations have begun. Just because shovels aren't in the ground as of yet, doesn't mean that SSE's not happening. If anything this makes or breaks the case for Ford More Years!

It doesn't matter if it happens or not. It does nothing to help move people around the city. They should focus on optimizing the GO, so we can have a proper transit system for a city our size.

 

[syn]

This is all subjective bloviation. To someone living in Bendale, the subway through there is more relevant to them than whether someone in Corktown has a stop at their doorstep or not. Heck SSE's more relevant to commuters living in Cedarbrae, Woburn, West Hill and Port Union too - all downstream along Lawrence East. There's nothing about the Ontario Line proposal that cannot be ironed out in time. You're the ones wanting it rushed through. It seems only the Crosstown gets stuck as is in perpetuity when Miller, McGuinty, et. al. promised Torontonians that it could one day be converted into a full-fledged subway line. What happened to those talking points?

Tell me how an elevated guideway is going to go up Danforth-McCowan Rds, btw. It can only be tunneled. If you wanted surface subway in the SRT corridor, you shouldn't have turned against your own "subway champions" (Hunter, Murray, DeBearemaker, Stintz) in the overt attempt to stick it to the Fords. You only stuck it to East End residents for another generation.

I'm not talking about relevancy based on where I live. The actual data doesn't justify a subway in Scarborough, and certainly not one that's entirely buried.

The Ontario Line/Relief line is foundational infrastructure. We can't get it wrong. Cheaping out on it and limiting capacity is incredibly foolish. This isn't based on feelings, it's based on where ridership levels are currently at and where they're going to be when the line opens.

There used to be a time when facts were a much larger component of the discussion than people's subjective wants.

When did Miller promise the Eglinton LRT would be converted to a subway line? Is this yet another fabricated talking point?

And every iteration of Eglinton West except Transit City called for a tunneled or elevated Eglinton West Line through Richview. From Bill Davis to Bob Rae to Smitherman to John Tory.

Based on growth projections that were wrong.

Interestingly, ever iteration of the Relief/Ontario Line dating back to the mid-20th century called for it to be a high capacity, underground line.

 

[syn]

Meh until construction is well underway they haven't done anything in my opinion. That goes for all governments and political parties, I don't support any specific party, they've all proven to be completely incompetent in building transit at all levels on a consistent basis.

Talk is cheap and until they create a consistent source of funding for transit projects it's all talk. The first sentence is asking for the FED's to fund 40%. Watch what happens it's so predictable. More EA's, more community consultations, same results due to lack of consistent funding and vision. The pitch from Ford was transit expansion built pragmatically and this is the opposite of that.

Agreed. There have been countless plans and RFQs, only to see them canceled or replaced with the next big plan.

It doesn't matter if it happens or not. It does nothing to help move people around the city. They should focus on optimizing the GO, so we can have a proper transit system for a city our size.

Exactly.

 

[Aplus23]

Again, digging a tunnel from kennedy to the STC is stupid and a waste of money. Just change the RT to an LRT, that's much cheaper and achieves the same goal does it not?? And how accurate are those numbers, 100,000 daily passengers from Kennedy to STC?? Scarborough needs the EELRT and a Sheppard expansion going east.

 

[Coolstar]

Again, digging a tunnel from kennedy to the STC is stupid and a waste of money. Just change the RT to an LRT, that's much cheaper and achieves the same goal does it not?? And how accurate are those numbers, 100,000 daily passengers from Kennedy to STC?? Scarborough needs the EELRT and a Sheppard expansion going east.

One can only dream.

 

[blacksquirrels]

Again, digging a tunnel from kennedy to the STC is stupid and a waste of money. Just change the RT to an LRT, that's much cheaper and achieves the same goal does it not?? And how accurate are those numbers, 100,000 daily passengers from Kennedy to STC?? Scarborough needs the EELRT and a Sheppard expansion going east.

No it does not achieve the same goal and is equally as bad of a plan, just cheaper. Neither plan achieves what it should. This is why someone like Josh Matlow is just as incompetent as Ford albeit with much less power.

If I were QP I'd pull all funding for SSE/LRT and reallocate all transit funds to either enhancing and maximizing capacity on all GO corridors. If Toronto wants to spend 5 billion on expanding Line 2 then Toronto should figure out how to pay for it. Spoiler alert - they couldn't afford it and would be forced to build something more pragmatic.

 

[Streety McCarface]

No it does not achieve the same goal and is equally as bad of a plan, just cheaper. Neither plan achieves what it should. This is why someone like Josh Matlow is just as incompetent as Ford albeit with much less power.

If I were QP I'd pull all funding for SSE/LRT and reallocate all transit funds to either enhancing and maximizing capacity on all GO corridors. If Toronto wants to spend 5 billion on expanding Line 2 then Toronto should figure out how to pay for it. Spoiler alert - they couldn't afford it and would be forced to build something more pragmatic.

Believe it or not, but RER on Barrie (to Barrie), Stouffville, Lakeshore West to Hamilton GO, and Kitchener (to Kitchener) scored much worse in the cost-benefit-analysis than the SSE.

Some other important projects that got low scores under Metrolinx's new methodology:
Eglinton East LRT got a score of 0.26-0.35
Waterfront East LRT got below 0.26
Waterfront West LRT got 0.26-0.35
Ontario Line got 0.36-0.65

Based on these alone, their methodology is garbage, for sure (because the benefits stated don't include any economic benefit), but it is consistent. In other words, all the subway projects (YNSE, Relief Line/OL, EW, and SSE) and LRT projects (EELRT, WWLRT, WELRT) have true cost-benefit ratios above 1 (probably above 3 at least), but each have pretty much the same benefit ratio.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20200220/20200220_BoardMtg_Advancing_Transit_Priorities.pdf

 

[blacksquirrels]

Believe it or not, but RER on Barrie (to Barrie), Stouffville, Lakeshore West to Hamilton GO, and Kitchener (to Kitchener) scored much worse in the cost-benefit-analysis than the SSE.

Some other important projects that got low scores under Metrolinx's new methodology:
Eglinton East LRT got a score of 0.26-0.35
Waterfront East LRT got below 0.26
Waterfront West LRT got 0.26-0.35
Ontario Line got 0.36-0.65

Based on these alone, their methodology is garbage, for sure (because the benefits stated don't include any economic benefit), but it is consistent. In other words, all the subway projects (YNSE, Relief Line/OL, EW, and SSE) and LRT projects (EELRT, WWLRT, WELRT) have true cost-benefit ratios above 1 (probably above 3 at least), but each have pretty much the same benefit ratio.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20200220/20200220_BoardMtg_Advancing_Transit_Priorities.pdf

Thanks I read it and I do believe it because the study is skewed. RER with 15 minute frequency isn't optimization though in my opinion. If each line had 5 minute (12 tphpd) then how would that compare? Much better I'd assume.

I'm talking about a service that looks something like this. No LRT or Subway extension is competing with a plan like this pictured below.

 

[asher__jo]

I wouldn't be surprised if Metrolinx is depending on bids tendered to reduce costs and propose efficiencies rather than finding them themselves (sections cut and covered or elevated).

 

[OneCity]

See folks, one may not like the Ford government or the pace at which they are advancing the rapid transit projects; but to say that they are doing nothing to advance it is categorically false.

Kinda unfortunate there is only 3 stops instead of 4, but when Scarborough was facing a choice of Transfer City vs. a 1 stop subway extension it's really refreshing to see this line move forward in such a good state

Looking at the timeline for tunneling, this Government realistically couldn't have been building this much faster with the added stops. Like i said before, no one can roadblock Ford at the Provincial level as they did on council stopping the connected LRT and Sheppard subway,. Delivering these project will be huge wins politically and the best outcome for the residents at this time considering the absurd state of the line when this admin took office.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Believe it or not, but RER on Barrie (to Barrie), Stouffville, Lakeshore West to Hamilton GO, and Kitchener (to Kitchener) scored much worse in the cost-benefit-analysis than the SSE.

Some other important projects that got low scores under Metrolinx's new methodology:
Eglinton East LRT got a score of 0.26-0.35
Waterfront East LRT got below 0.26
Waterfront West LRT got 0.26-0.35
Ontario Line got 0.36-0.65

Based on these alone, their methodology is garbage, for sure (because the benefits stated don't include any economic benefit), but it is consistent. In other words, all the subway projects (YNSE, Relief Line/OL, EW, and SSE) and LRT projects (EELRT, WWLRT, WELRT) have true cost-benefit ratios above 1 (probably above 3 at least), but each have pretty much the same benefit ratio.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20200220/20200220_BoardMtg_Advancing_Transit_Priorities.pdf

So they suck at planning business cases. What a shock!