Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[rbt]

Easily? I thought after that was killed when Rob Ford was mayor for his 3-station subway that the revised design that they are now building didn't line up with the SRT corridor easily, instead heading east on Eglinton.

But I don't know how tight a turn you could build out of the new station.

Well, it could follow roughly the same path as the subway up Midland. It might even run at surface for much of the route, ducking under intersections as it does at Don Mills which reduces costs quite a bit over the subway option.

That said, Flexity Freedom units have a tighter turning radius than Toronto Rockets. The minimum turning radius is 20m, not enough to make a right-hand turn at a standard downtown intersection (~12m radius) but not far from that either. They could use a curve at slow speeds similar to the existing SRT to reach the corridor then climb to a portal; this might go under the GO tracks a bit which makes construction challenging.

That said, they might choose to curve back into the SRT corridor at higher speed (30km/h to 40km/h) by Fitzgibbon Ave, about 300m north of Kennedy Station.

TTC recommends 750m radius curves for their subway, largely to minimize rail wear and tear (Union is much much tighter) and allow the curve to be taken at full speed (80km/h). Flexity is a bit more flexible than a Rocket though, with a much shorter distance between pivot points.

 

[OneCity]

 

[syn]

I hate to say it, but the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT was really the best plan.

It may seem so in hindsight, but it at least doubled the budget (at minimum) and would've taken up all available transit funds from the Province. He wanted the entire thing underground.

Ford, of course, doesn't compromise and didn't really push for it after it was rejected (in large part due to his complete incompetence).

The current Ford in power could go back to that plan if he wants - instead it has to be a SUBWAY SUBWAY SUBWAY.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It may seem so in hindsight, but it at least doubled the budget (at minimum) and would've taken up all available transit funds from the Province. He wanted the entire thing underground.

Ford, of course, doesn't compromise and didn't really push for it after it was rejected (in large part due to his complete incompetence).

The current Ford in power could go back to that plan if he wants - instead it has to be a SUBWAY SUBWAY SUBWAY.

At the time. Remember this all started because of the transfer at Kennedy. That LRT plan eliminated that.

 

[kEiThZ]

At the time. Remember this all started because of the transfer at Kennedy. That LRT plan eliminated that.

Not for anyone downtown bound really.

It makes more sense to keep Eglinton on you know Eglinton. And have it actually cover the length of Eglinton across the city.

As for the transfer. It indeed got Scarborough riled up. But so did the short length and failing condition of the SRT. If the SRT had been extended over the years to Malvern Town Centre or the Zoo, we wouldn't be having the discussion. So many people took a bus to access the SRT, that it became a useless inconvenience on their way to Kennedy station.

 

[OneCity]

Not for anyone downtown bound really.

It makes more sense to keep Eglinton on you know Eglinton. And have it actually cover the length of Eglinton across the city.

As for the transfer. It indeed got Scarborough riled up. But so did the short length and failing condition of the SRT. If the SRT had been extended over the years to Malvern Town Centre or the Zoo, we wouldn't be having the discussion. So many people took a bus to access the SRT, that it became a useless inconvenience on their way to Kennedy station.

Possibly

But the transfer is still a major inconvenience that also disconnects the Centre and had intermediate stops in non optimal locations. The RT was a poorly designed piece of infrastructure in so many ways. There was alot not to like aside from the very unfortunate issues with the technology.

If the transfer was removed it would heavily increase the convenience for all riders and not just those near Lawrence. Many who bypass the line altogether

The subway extension could have followed a similar path as the LRT was design and elevated in sections to Malvern town Centre but unfortunately only LRT was pursued.

As it stands the subway loop is great as the main backbone and now the City can focus on planning the BRT or LRT feeders from UTSC, Malvern and Centennial College campuses. EELRT and Durham-Scarborough BRT are already in the plans to get started here

 

[BurlOak]

Possibly

But the transfer is still a major inconvenience that also disconnects the Centre and had intermediate stops in non optimal locations. The RT was a poorly designed piece of infrastructure in so many ways. There was alot not to like aside from the very unfortunate issues with the technology.

If the transfer was removed it would heavily increase the convenience for all riders and not just those near Lawrence. Many who bypass the line altogether

The subway extension could have followed a similar path as the LRT was design and elevated in sections to Malvern town Centre but unfortunately only LRT was pursued.

As it stands the subway loop is great as the main backbone and now the City can focus on planning the BRT or LRT feeders from UTSC, Malvern and Centennial College campuses. EELRT and Durham-Scarborough BRT are already in the plans to get started here

I am not a huge fan of the loop. It essentially ensures no extensions, and once the Markham GO line is better used, few downtown bound riders will actually be taking it all the way around.

I made this comment in the Sheppard thread - although maybe it fits here better. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-sheppard-subway-extension-proposed.20503/post-1439508

I would guess the Ford plan is to connect Sheppard Line to B-D Line. The station is called McCowan, so I suspect it would be south of the intersection to allow a curve from McCowan to Sheppard. Whether it's too tight for a curve likely hasn't been considered. This would preclude any extension either north or east.

What I proposed was for B-D line is to continue north 450m on McCowan, where it would go into the CPR rail yard. The line would re-surface at the south end of this rail yard - and thankfully that distance does not require a fire exit, so it's basically just the cost of tunnelling (<$100M per km), and it's likely a more convenient (i.e. out-of-the way) place for a TBM launch or extraction site. At the north end of this rail yard, there would be another station at Finch (near Markham Road). I understand CPR wanted to sell this land a while ago, so developers would likely pay for a good part of this extension.
For Sheppard, it would follow the previously approved plan - and if they cobble together some extra money, it would follow Progress Ave. to Centennial and elevated to UTSC.

 

[OneCity]

I am not a huge fan of the loop. It essentially ensures no extensions, and once the Markham GO line is better used, few downtown bound riders will actually be taking it all the way around.

I made this comment in the Sheppard thread - although maybe it fits here better. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-sheppard-subway-extension-proposed.20503/post-1439508

I would guess the Ford plan is to connect Sheppard Line to B-D Line. The station is called McCowan, so I suspect it would be south of the intersection to allow a curve from McCowan to Sheppard. Whether it's too tight for a curve likely hasn't been considered. This would preclude any extension either north or east.

What I proposed was for B-D line is to continue north 450m on McCowan, where it would go into the CPR rail yard. The line would re-surface at the south end of this rail yard - and thankfully that distance does not require a fire exit, so it's basically just the cost of tunnelling (<$100M per km), and it's likely a more convenient (i.e. out-of-the way) place for a TBM launch or extraction site. At the north end of this rail yard, there would be another station at Finch (near Markham Road). I understand CPR wanted to sell this land a while ago, so developers would likely pay for a good part of this extension.
For Sheppard, it would follow the previously approved plan - and if they cobble together some extra money, it would follow Progress Ave. to Centennial and elevated to UTSC.

Agreed. I believe the term "loop" is being used a bit loose just as it look on a map as a loop. Initially the the BDL and Sheppard subways should likely intersect at McCowan. It would be great if the Province can have both lines built to McCowan in the next in 15-20 years. Atleast if they can solidify that McCowan intersection in the design we can properly plan for BRT, LRT or even future subway extensions to branch out.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Not for anyone downtown bound really.

It makes more sense to keep Eglinton on you know Eglinton. And have it actually cover the length of Eglinton across the city.

As for the transfer. It indeed got Scarborough riled up. But so did the short length and failing condition of the SRT. If the SRT had been extended over the years to Malvern Town Centre or the Zoo, we wouldn't be having the discussion. So many people took a bus to access the SRT, that it became a useless inconvenience on their way to Kennedy station.

Very true. And while the Crosstown SRT eliminated that transfer, a new one is created by stopping Eglinton East at Kennedy. Right now I guess people are going to pretend bringing the Sheppard East Subway to Markham Road or something like that would help Malvern.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Agreed. I believe the term "loop" is being used a bit loose just as it look on a map as a loop. Initially the the BDL and Sheppard subways should likely intersect at McCowan. It would be great if the Province can have both lines built to McCowan in the next in 15-20 years. Atleast if they can solidify that McCowan intersection in the design we can properly plan for BRT, LRT or even future subway extensions to branch out

I am not a huge fan of the loop. It essentially ensures no extensions, and once the Markham GO line is better used, few downtown bound riders will actually be taking it all the way around.

I made this comment in the Sheppard thread - although maybe it fits here better. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/ttc-sheppard-subway-extension-proposed.20503/post-1439508

I would guess the Ford plan is to connect Sheppard Line to B-D Line. The station is called McCowan, so I suspect it would be south of the intersection to allow a curve from McCowan to Sheppard. Whether it's too tight for a curve likely hasn't been considered. This would preclude any extension either north or east.

What I proposed was for B-D line is to continue north 450m on McCowan, where it would go into the CPR rail yard. The line would re-surface at the south end of this rail yard - and thankfully that distance does not require a fire exit, so it's basically just the cost of tunnelling (<$100M per km), and it's likely a more convenient (i.e. out-of-the way) place for a TBM launch or extraction site. At the north end of this rail yard, there would be another station at Finch (near Markham Road). I understand CPR wanted to sell this land a while ago, so developers would likely pay for a good part of this extension.
For Sheppard, it would follow the previously approved plan - and if they cobble together some extra money, it would follow Progress Ave. to Centennial and elevated to UTSC.

The loop is being pushed because they want to build another mega bus terminal. I think if there is going to be a loop it should end at STC. If not, when McCowan opens STC bus terminal needs to shrink by half.

 

[OneCity]

The loop is being pushed because they want to build another mega bus terminal. I think if there is going to be a loop it should end at STC. If not, when McCowan opens STC bus terminal needs to shrink by half.

Both one or either make sense to some extent. And may be easier on traffic to have 2 smaller hubs on each side of the 401. One for those strictly accessing the broader subway network at Sheppard and the other for trips to the Centre.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Both one or either make sense to some extent. And may be easier on traffic to have 2 smaller hubs on each side of the 401. One for those strictly accessing the broader subway network at Sheppard and the other for trips to the Centre.

Thing is ending at sheppard mccowan creates demand for a new bus terminal. Do you want to spend the extra money crossing the 401 to progress and STC, or at a new terminal? Tough decision to me.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Thing is ending at sheppard mccowan creates demand for a new bus terminal. Do you want to spend the extra money crossing the 401 to progress and STC, or at a new terminal? Tough decision to me.

Can you clarify that? Do you mean the Sheppard extension crossing the 401 west of McCowan and terminating at STC or the proposed plan to “terminate” at Sheppard and McCowan? Obviously a straight shot Sheppard extension with average sized bus terminals at both stations is better than having all buses crossing over the 401 to the bus terminal.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Can you clarify that? Do you mean the Sheppard extension crossing the 401 west of McCowan and terminating at STC or the proposed plan to “terminate” at Sheppard and McCowan? Obviously a straight shot Sheppard extension with average sized bus terminals at both stations is better than having all buses crossing over the 401 to the bus terminal.

I mean the sheppard extension going to McCowan and a new bus terminal vs dropping down to STC, yes. You think 2 terminals is better? Explain, I'm interested to hear this.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I mean the sheppard extension going to McCowan and a new bus terminal vs dropping down to STC, yes. You think 2 terminals is better? Explain, I'm interested to hear this.

Have 1 terminal to serve Scarborough North of Hwy 401 with potential for YRT connections and another terminal to serve Scarborough South of Hwy 401 with DRT connections. Ideally, using the subway to transfer between bus routes is better than half of the buses crossing the 401 congesting McCowan Road and other 401 crossings.