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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

TheTigerMaster said:
Don’t you just love it when everything the naysayers have ever said ends up being true? ?
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I find it funny that people who question this project in the context of other transit priorities and critical needs are frequently labeled as jealous, haters, etc. when all of their concerns end up being validated.
 
syn said:
I find it funny that people who question this project in the context of other transit priorities and critical needs are frequently labeled as jealous, haters, etc. when all of their concerns end up being validated.
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My frustration isn’t even with this project specifically. There are a lot of valid reasons for supporting the SSE, and particularly the three-stop variant

My frustration is more with voters for letting themselves be lied to time and time again. There‘s been tons of reporting on how the various transit schemes presented to voters have been totally implausible, yet voters consistently choose to ignore those inconvenient facts, throwing their support behind politicians peddling this nonsense. And then they wonder why nothing is getting built. We saw it with Ford’s transit plan back in 2010, with Tory’s Smarttrack in 2014, and again with the transit network plan in 2018. I’m sure we’ll see this repeated with whatever nonsense Ford is peddling now

I don’t blame the politicians for this. Voters oughta know not to trust anything coming out their mouths. Nor do I blame the media - there’s been plenty of reporting on the faults of these various plans; voters choose to ignore them. Responsibility for this conundrum lies squarely with the electorate (luckily I’m not a politician that has to pretend that voters magically know what’s best).

Until voters put on their big boy pants, and acknowledge that transit doesn’t come free, and that not everyone will get everything they want, we’ll be stuck in this rut forever.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
My frustration isn’t even with this project specifically. There are a lot of valid reasons for supporting the SSE, and particularly the three-stop variant

My frustration is more with voters for letting themselves be lied to time and time again. There‘s been tons of reporting on how the various transit schemes presented to voters have been totally implausible, yet voters consistently choose to ignore those inconvenient facts, throwing their support behind politicians peddling this nonsense. And then they wonder why nothing is getting built. We saw it with Ford’s transit plan back in 2010, with Tory’s Smarttrack in 2014, and again with the transit network plan in 2018. I’m sure we’ll see this repeated with whatever nonsense Ford is peddling now

I don’t blame the politicians for this. Voters oughta know not to trust anything coming out their mouths. Nor do I blame the media - there’s been plenty of reporting on the faults of these various plans; voters choose to ignore them. Responsibility for this conundrum lies squarely with the electorate (luckily I’m not a politician that has to pretend that voters magically know what’s best).

Until voters put on their big boy pants, and acknowledge that transit doesn’t come free, and that not everyone will get everything they want, we’ll be stuck in this rut forever.
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I hold the politicians accountable. We're all accountable at the end of the day.

This is why I appreciated Miller. Transit City may not have been perfect, but it was reasonable given the investment and locations.

He's the last Mayor who seemed to understand what was necessary while standing up for the city and working with upper levels of government. New revenue tools like the LTT were necessary, as unpopular as they are.

Ford just put out whatever was necessary to get votes, and Tory is more of the same. He seems like nothing more than a Provincial 'Yes Man'.
 
nfitz said:
The first two are dead, or indefinitely deferred. I think North is implicitly part of this. West is really only an aspiration ... they've done more work on Jane than West.
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The city should keep control of the EELRT. And keep it alive. More people in the media should be pressuring people on Sheppard since the PCs wanted to close the loop right?
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
The city should keep control of the EELRT. And keep it alive. More people in the media should be pressuring people on Sheppard since the PCs wanted to close the loop right?
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Now they know the cost - I doubt they want to do that ... and all indications are they they are moving away from this.

Should city keep control of EELRT? I'd love that, but it wouldn't be as part of Line 5, which has already been uploaded - at least not without many years of contract negotiations.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
And the 4 projects covered isn't even all of them? Sheppard Subway? Eglinton East LRT? Relief Line North and West?
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Sheppard is not anywhere near the top of the list. Unfortunately, EE LRT will be pushed back as well, if the Province wants to charge the City as much as 1/4 of the $30 billion plan. The City might retain "control" of EE LRT, but it won't have any chance to fund it.

Relief Line North and West might depend on the technology choice for the RL East. If the technology = RER, then it will be natural for the northern segment of the RH line to become RL North, and for the LSW, Weston Sub, Bolton lines to become a part of RL West.

If the technology is not RER / not mainline compatible, then .. well, crickets. Nobody knows when those projects will be seriously looked at.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
Meh. That sounds like a wonderful thing to me. Especially since I have zero faith of any of these projects starting construction anytime soon. The province isn’t acting in good faith here, and we should have not be playing ball with them. These projects can wait until we have a government that isn’t hostile to Toronto
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The Liberals weren't hostile to Toronto, and they had some transit accomplishments during their 15-years reign. We've got TYSSE, ECLRT, massive GO enhancements, and likely Finch West.

However, what percentage of our transit backlog did that cover? I recon, no more than 20-25%. We still need more capacity into downtown, more GO service, and more E-W lines.

Staying on the sidelines and waiting for the next 4 years, or perhaps 8 years, would not reduce the remaining backlog. On the contrary, that would undo some of the previous progress, as the population grows and so is the demand for transit.

Sure, this provincial government is a difficult "funding partner", and the demand for the 1/4 of the cost coming from the City is onerous (assuming the report is accurate). And yet, I much prefer the City trying to negotiate and use at least some of the funds that the Province is apparently willing to invest, rather than slamming the door and getting nothing at all.
 
Rainforest said:
Staying on the sidelines and waiting for the next 4 years, or perhaps 8 years, would not reduce the remaining backlog. On the contrary, that would undo some of the previous progress, as the population grows and so is the demand for transit.
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I'll give Ford a chance to reveal his plans. Maybe their plans will be amazing and I'll eat my words. However, I am not expecting that. If these plans end up being poorly thought out (for example, a woefully under-capacity DRL, or plans that are just outright infesiable), I'd rather the City just cancel the plans outright and wait for a more mature government to come into power, so we can get this built right. This infrastructure is going to be used by Torotonians for centuries to come, so I'm willing to wait four years to get it done right. If these projects aren't good, then I don't want them at all.

Beyond that, I'll reiterate again that the Province is clearly acting in bad faith here. They're treating these "negotiations" more like a hostage taking. Agreeing to hand over billions of dollars to an entity that has a consistent history of trying to screw you over is insane. Torontonians have absolutely no reason to believe that Ontario has their best interests in mind, and no reason to trust them with a $7 Billion payout.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
I'll give Ford a chance to reveal his plans. Maybe their plans will be amazing and I'll eat my words. However, I am not expecting that.
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You can safely bet on his plans not being "amazing". In any case, the city will be up to tough negotiations. The real question is whether some substantial common ground exists between his vision and the city's needs.

TheTigerMaster said:
If these plans end up being poorly thought out (for example, a woefully under-capacity DRL, or plans that are just outright infesiable), I'd rather the City just cancel the plans outright and wait for a more mature government to come into power, so we can get this built right. This infrastructure is going to be used by Torotonians for centuries to come, so I'm willing to wait four years to get it done right. If these projects aren't good, then I don't want them at all.
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I agree that the quality of his Relief Line is the key. If his Relief Line turns out to nonviable (which could be either technically unfeasible, or the cost dramatically low-balled, or not capable of providing meaningful relief), then the City should reject any contributions towards that kind of RL, and towards Yonge North as well. Even then, some negotiations could be possible on the matter of SSE and Eglinton West.

Let's wait for the details; his Relief Line remains a mistery for now.

TheTigerMaster said:
Beyond that, I'll reiterate again that the Province is clearly acting in bad faith here. They're treating these "negotiations" more like a hostage taking. Agreeing to hand over billions of dollars to an entity that has a consistent history of trying to screw you over is insane. Torontonians have absolutely no reason to believe that Ontario has their best interests in mind, and no reason to trust them with a $7 Billion payout.
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I can't totally rule out straight bad faith, which would mean the program specifically designed in such a way that the City will be unable to accept the offer, and then the province can use that as an excuse to totally bail out from transit funding for Toronto.

However, more likely it will be overconfidence (Doug Ford thinks he is a practical person with a great business acumen, and can easily outdo those inept left-leaning councilors and city bureaucrats) combined with very limited expertize (in fact, he is a total newbie to transit planning, and can easily fall in one of numerous traps that more experienced planners could easily recognize and avoid). If so, then the stage is set for difficult negotiations with constant complains and mutual frustration, but a somewhat useful outcome might still be reached at the end.
 
CBC has published a map showing the 3 proposed Ford subway stations.

Normally I'd figure they've got this wrong - because no one would ever come up with something this stupid. But these days? ???

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Why are we saying "Ford's plans?" He doesn't know enough about transit to make a plan. These are plans someone at Metrolinx cooked up and sold him.

That map is obviously ridiculous, but assuming it's an error and the tunneled portion is on Ellesmere or the existing right of way, no so much.
 
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